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Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

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101–110 of 166 posts

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#101

Mr. Grove correctly identifies the problem but avoids the obvious solution, perhaps because it's too painful to articulate. The phenomenally elevated standard of living that we have enjoyed in the U.S. since the end of WWII just isn't sustainable. The Chinese aren't devouring the tech market because they manage their economy. They're doing so because the Chinese worker will work for far, far less than any American wo…

Why is it that you believe NA will regress to an early industrial economy as opposed to a future which parallels th equality demonstrated in the Europe-N.A. relationship.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be a net gain of IP jobs in the future but are we going to find anywhere close to 5 billion of them? Service jobs will decline over time too as more and more of them are automated out of existence. When was the last time you actually went into a bank? The number of people making a real living in the arts will remain very small. The optimistic scenario is that world population self-regulates down over time a…

"The number of people making a real living in the arts will remain very small." This sounds a lot like an agricultural-age person saying "the number of people making a real living in manufacturing will remain very small". If all physical goods are really cheap enough, you don't need to earn that much as an artist to afford them.

The art most people can produce is worth exactly zero.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#103
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grove is basically saying we need to start more companies that "scale up" to require factories where people sit doing stuff like what's seen in that video. He's wrong. You have to give Grove more credit than that. Obviously, he does not want to create clock-punching jobs just for the sake of having clock-punching jobs. Grove is known to run a tight ship. His example of the alternative energy space is a perfect one…

My real point, though, is that consolidation is inevitable. Production jobs ("Scaling," etc.) are going to become less important over time, not more important, whether they're in China or America. Any forward-looking argument that doesn't take that fact into account is flawed from the outset, and I think Grove's piece falls into that category. Is it really healthy for Silicon Valley if Apple has a factory cranking ou…

> Is it really healthy for Silicon Valley if Apple has a factory cranking out iPhones in Cupertino

You're begging the question; there is a country beyond Silicon Valley, and Grove's argument is that what is best for Silicon Valley (meaning, the bottom lines of a few tech firms which together only employ a small percentage of the U.S. population) isn't necessarily what is best for the country as a whole.

Put more directly, it's not clear that there are enough IP-based jobs to keep the United States at or near full employment. To do that, which we need for social stability, because high unemployment is intensely corrosive, we need to capture some of those manufacturing jobs. And it might be worth doing things that hurt tech companies' profitability in the short term -- taxing outsourced manufacturing, for instance -- in order to achieve that.

If we don't, the "rational business climate" might drive all the manufacturing overseas, leaving the U.S. with a very small number of employed people doing the design work, and hordes of disaffected, unemployable people with nothing to do. As you point out, once you have the production line set up in China, it makes sense to just scale it out there rather than build a second one here.

The long-term social effects of such a 90/10 split would be very bad, and would in all likelihood eventually make it very hard to be very profitable at all. So it might make sense for IP-centric design companies to take a short-term hit and try to maintain something closer to full employment, lest they find themselves first up against the wall when the welfare proletariat they created revolts.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#104
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go to Beijing... brown air... sick... gaping holes with no signs... break your leg... welding rain down on your head... boss rapes you and you're not connected, that's too bad... Dude, I was in Beijing two months ago. It's not like you make it out to be. Actually, it's a hell of a lot nicer than Detroit. In fact, I was in China five years ago and again two months ago. It's trending upwards quickly - the pollution w…

In fact, I was in China five years ago and again two months ago. It's trending upwards quickly - the pollution was near unbearable five years ago and is rapidly improving. Infrastructure is improving. Air and water quality are improving All of these things are because of deliberate government policies. I'm sure you know this, but it's worth pointing out. I think you & donw are agreeing with each other here - he's jus…

> All of these things are because of deliberate government policies. I'm sure you know this, but it's worth pointing out.

Sort of. If you look at history, every country that's gone through an industrializing process has had an increase in pollution followed by a decrease in pollution. Some of that is attributable to regulation, but it happens in unregulated industries too - almost everyone naturally dislikes pollution, and generally prefer to reduce it.

Saying pollution is down and infrastructure is up because if government policy is almost correct, but slightly misses the mark - pollution is down and infrastructure is up because Chinese people worked to make that happen. But this same process happens similarly in countries with less government regulation as well. Over time, people want lower pollution and waste near them and invest, manage, and produce that result, government or no.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#105
post #38

The real elephant in the room, which Grove and practically everybody else knows very well but refuses to talk about, is that nobody starts a company to employ people. People start a company to make stuff . To the extent this can be done with fewer people, this is always a good thing from that company's perspective, with no exceptions I can think of offhand. People suck, and you don't want to deal with them if you can…

Why not focus on how to make stuff more efficiently locally, i.e., robotics? At least that could keep some manufacturing jobs local.

I recently read an interesting book by the guy who runs Sherline, a U.S. manufacturer of small lathes and milling machines.

The book is sort of a meandering opus covering basic machining techniques but also talking about the history of the company and how the business was built. A lot of it involves finding ways to use technology and advanced manufacturing methods to keep U.S. manufacture competitive with Asian imports.

E.g., the Sherline mill is built on an aluminum extrusion filled with some sort of epoxy/concrete for rigidity. Most Asian lathes are built on castings which are machined to final specifications. The Sherline method is more difficult and requires more capital investment, but requires less labor.

Basically in every case he mentions, the way you keep a U.S. based company competitive with Asia is by engineering away all the labor. What you do with 15 people in an Asian factory using 100-year-old methods you do with one guy and millions of dollars worth of state-of-the-art tooling in a U.S. one. And even then it might only buy you a few years of competitiveness, until that machinery can get moved over to Asia and installed, and then they beat you based on the cost of the one guy.

Anyway, it's an interesting book if you're interested in that sort of thing but doesn't do much to restore my confidence that we're not engaged in a race to the bottom as a country.

(Link to book: http://www.sherline.com/bookplug.htm)

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#106
post #27
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are currently losing this non-war. The Chinese are playing to win this non-war.

Or to put it in other words, the Chinese are fighting a trade war and we are just pretending this is not happening, and getting our asses kicked.

More likely, Chinese leadership has its own set of problems and what happens to the US is tangential, at most just another factor to consider in complex calculations. They are probably indifferent about whether some particular policy of theirs is "creating" or "destroying" jobs in the US, as long as it has its desired domestic effect. That's a completely different thing from a "war" with its focus on the other side and emphasis on "winning" against the other side. Attitudes like yours are knee-jerk, populist, and likely to make the world a worse place than it already is in the future.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of them shifted into fields that didn't exist in 1900 because in 1900, food and shelter were the majority of what people in the US worked for.

I wonder if something similar will happen in the future, except replacing "food and shelter" with "food, shelter, manufacturing, electronics, clothes, etc.". Would new industries then come out of the ashes of manual labor in these different fields?

You still need raw materials for those factories.

I suspect war will remain a popular pastime.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#108
Andy Grove is worrying about yesterday's jobs. He shouldn't be. No one was worrying about agricultural jobs disappearing, replaced by manufacturing jobs. As technology advanced, fewer farmers were needed to satisfy the basic needs of the consumer. As their basic needs were satisfied new needs for random widgets, plastic toys and entertainment devices appeared, creating opportunities in manufacturing. Today, service jobs has mostly replaced jobs in manufacturing in developed countries; The amount of service & creative work (e.g giving massages, selling products, and of course inventing the next digital device) output an American worker can produce makes it uneconomical to put the worker in a mundane factory making McDonald's toys instead. As technology advances and robotics replaces even factory workers in developing countries, more labor will be freed up to do other things. As had happened in the past, when the most basic consumer needs are resolved there will always be new needs arising; Where yesterday's consumer demanded shelter, food, clothing and a radio, today's consumer demands cars, houses, artwork, internet, hot water supply and monthly professional haircuts. The circle of increasing supply leading to increased demand and thus increased supply again is a virtuous one.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#109
I think the core of the problem is the idea of the 40-hour work week. It is inevitable that more and more jobs will become marginalized and automated. That is a good thing: the goal of technological progress should be increased happiness, of which one component is increased leisure time.

As more and more jobs require less and less work performed by humans, the obvious solution is to work less hours. Instead of family providers working a total of 60-90 hours per week, they should be working closer to 40-50 in the somewhat-near future, with that number continuing to drop over time.

We obviously have 3 possible paths:

  1. We return to the single-provider days of old
  2. We scale back "normal" hours to be 20-30 hours per week per person.
  3. We have high unemployment while many are working 70+ hour weeks.
Currently we are going with (3), and it just doesn't make that much sense. Either (1) or (2) would be acceptable to me, but (2) certainly seems more fair. I would love to get to a situation where families get to spend valuable time together and kids are raised by their parents.

I think an average of 25 hours per week would hit a nice sweet spot. It would allow companies to have 10-hour work days, either alternating 3/2 10-hour days per week, or 5-hour shifts 5 days a week. Jobs like programming could be designed to have 2 8-hour shifts per week (to perform actual development) along with 3 3-hour shifts (to address meetings, squash bugs, perform customer service, etc.). What is keeping us from this?

Instead, we have something like 15-20% of the population overworking themselves while another 15-20% are under- or unemployed. Something's gotta give.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#110
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extremist point of view. Realistically they have a lot of purposes that should be kept in mind.

When you become a director of a company you have a legal duty to "enhance shareholder value" thats the only rule. Anything else you do, every hire, every contract, every charity donation must be justifiable in this context - unless you enjoy shareholder lawsuits.

This is false. You have a duty to do what the shareholders want you to do and what is in their best interest, but you are allowed to use your own judgement to a great extent to determine what that might be.

There is a great deal of caselaw dealing with this (you can google "shareholder primacy" if you want to jump in) but it is anything but clear cut.

If the duty of directors to shareholders was as absolute as many people on the Internet think it is, companies would have to shut down and go into liquidation every time their market cap dropped below book value. But they don't (even, in some cases, when some investors might prefer it) because directors have the prerogative to seek long term gains at the expense of short term ones.

(They also have the prerogative to do the opposite, and the market unfortunately tends to reward it, but there are many exceptions.)

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