Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late • Hacker News Board

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#11

Post by Hubbert » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 12:59 AM UTC

Aaronontheweb wrote: post #2

Andy makes an excellent point: when we outsource the manufacturing and scaling processes to another country, what we lose in addition to jobs are the innovations and experience necessary to maintain a strong defensive econosystem with respect to our economy. However, I disagree with Andy's recommendation that we should tax offshore labor - we should focus on making labor in the United States less expensive. Neuter th…

Aaronontheweb, why wait for government action? Come work at my apartment TOMORROW 16 hours/day for $0.20/hr. I'll try to find a way for you to inhale some heavy metals and asbestos while you work. Imagine the fun of trying to predict whether you will be functionally retarded or die of painful cancer first. Either way, you will die painfully, because I do NOT provide health insurance.

Seriously: How did we get from "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" to "drive down everyone's quality life to match the world's most miserable and backward countries?"

Aside from technology that hadn't been invented yet, people in the West lived did very well in the late 20th century. Most people who bothered to show up for work had a balanced diet, adequate medical care, and usually a car. And they somehow managed to do it without rampant workplace death, child labor, or rendering the ecosystem uninhabitable for decades[1]. They even had fundamental civil rights like freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press.

[1] Aside from notable exceptions like Love Canal, etc. But I see that as largely the result of ignorance; we now have a better understanding of the impacts of our behavior on the place we LIVE.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#12

Post by Hubbert » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:08 AM UTC

dcb wrote: post #8

Aaronontheweb wrote: post #2

Andy makes an excellent point: when we outsource the manufacturing and scaling processes to another country, what we lose in addition to jobs are the innovations and experience necessary to maintain a strong defensive econosystem with respect to our economy. However, I disagree with Andy's recommendation that we should tax offshore labor - we should focus on making labor in the United States less expensive. Neuter th…

No, Aaronontheweb makes a good point. Of course he's not arguing in favor of environmental disasters or slavery-in-all-but-name. Pay attention to his main point: attack high labor prices here, rather than low prices elsewhere. Andy Grove can be protectionist if he wants, but just because he's not ashamed of it doesn't make it any better of an idea.

"High labor prices" = "High wages." THIS MEANS YOU!

Unless you are worth >$10M, are retired, or live off a trust fund, admit that you're labor not capital: just like highly paid executives, surgeons, and name-brand attorneys are more "labor:" they generate more earned income than asset income.

Go ahead: pull out your 2009 tax return: is the "income from wages, tips, and salaries" greater than the "interest income" and appreciation on your house (ha ha!)? Then you care about WAGES. Stop pretending like you're a Rockefeller: you're not. And your doctor / lawyer / professors / boss aren't either.

(If you persist in an unjustified obsession with your assets, HIGHER WAGES are what will drive housing prices up in the long run...compare incomes and housing prices in Palo Alto and Lubbock, TX, and HIGHER WAGES and GROWING MANUFACTURING will help your stock portfolio: do you really want to see GE and Boeing follow GM into bankruptcy?)

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#13

Post by Hubbert » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:16 AM UTC

ja30278 wrote: post #10

ovi256 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Neuter the Department of Labor, get rid of labor regulations with heniously expensive and obnoxious unintended consequences like the mandatory 8-hour work day in California, eliminate the concept of wrongful termination, and put a muzzle on the EPA. Enjoy your third world working conditions. But you are an executive and/or a shareholder, are you not ?

Enjoy _your_ third world economy, free from pesky pollutant-causing industry and manufacturing. The poster has correctly identified the value proposition that causes companies to locate their manufacturing facilities elsewhere, and points out (also correctly) that making our tax codes as unfriendly to business as our labor laws will only encourage _those_ bits of the business to relocate as well. You cannot have all…

* cheap products for consumers = higher standard of living. IIRC, consumer products are about 18% of a typical household budget. Housing, healthcare, and education are the majority.

For the millions now with ZERO income, even Chinese-made Wal*Mart crap is unaffordable. Yet the unionized workers of the 1950s - 1970's somehow purchased cars, household products, and clothing like domestically-made Levis blue jeans WITHOUT slave labor from repressive countries and without borrowing trillions fro those same countries.

I will gladly trade somewhat higher consumer prices for confidence that I will be employable in safe conditions at a middle-class wage for the duration of my normal working life.

And I'm very pro-manufacturing: but the environmental externalities must be mitigated and properly priced: my health is very valuable to me, even if there's no clear market price for it.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#14

Post by enjo » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:19 AM UTC

woodrow wrote: post #6

Aaronontheweb wrote: post #2

Andy makes an excellent point: when we outsource the manufacturing and scaling processes to another country, what we lose in addition to jobs are the innovations and experience necessary to maintain a strong defensive econosystem with respect to our economy. However, I disagree with Andy's recommendation that we should tax offshore labor - we should focus on making labor in the United States less expensive. Neuter th…

While I'll agree that OSHA/EPA are often overzealous when you look at the cost-effectiveness (i.e. dollars spent per statistical life saved), and that labor is expensive, I don't think the rapid abandonment of our standards in a race to the bottom is the solution. The problem is that places like China have low/non-existent standards that are politically acceptable there (or citizens can't say otherwise). This is thei…

Exactly. This is the strong case for tariffs. We need to effectively tax the flow of goods coming into the country for countries who insist on promoting a lower standard. If it costs money to protect workers rights and the environment, then any country doing less should see it's good taxed to make up the difference.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#15

Post by cageface » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:24 AM UTC

Mr. Grove correctly identifies the problem but avoids the obvious solution, perhaps because it's too painful to articulate. The phenomenally elevated standard of living that we have enjoyed in the U.S. since the end of WWII just isn't sustainable. The Chinese aren't devouring the tech market because they manage their economy. They're doing so because the Chinese worker will work for far, far less than any American worker. Americans currently still monopolize the high paying design & research job market but there's no reason to expect that Asia will indefinitely play second fiddle here.

To put it bluntly - the last decade was the beginning of a painful crash of the American economy back to earth. When we finally do reestablish equilibrium Americans will be back at work at assembly lines. A massive re-investment in hard science education, which seems extremely unlikely, might cushion the blow but there's only so much room for jobs in intellectual capital.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#16

Post by gojomo » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:25 AM UTC

He had me up until:

Levy an extra tax on the product of offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars -- fight to win.)

Everybody loses a trade war. And the ensuing impoverishment and desperation can trigger a shooting war.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#17

Post by cageface » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:27 AM UTC

Hubbert wrote: post #13

ja30278 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enjoy _your_ third world economy, free from pesky pollutant-causing industry and manufacturing. The poster has correctly identified the value proposition that causes companies to locate their manufacturing facilities elsewhere, and points out (also correctly) that making our tax codes as unfriendly to business as our labor laws will only encourage _those_ bits of the business to relocate as well. You cannot have all…

* cheap products for consumers = higher standard of living. IIRC, consumer products are about 18% of a typical household budget. Housing, healthcare, and education are the majority. For the millions now with ZERO income, even Chinese-made Wal*Mart crap is unaffordable. Yet the unionized workers of the 1950s - 1970's somehow purchased cars, household products, and clothing like domestically-made Levis blue jeans WITHO…

Yet the unionized workers of the 1950s - 1970's somehow purchased cars, household products, and clothing like domestically-made Levis blue jeans WITHOUT slave labor from repressive countries and without borrowing trillions fro those same countries.

That was only possible because that time period was a window in which our technological superiority made it possible to provide the average working man with that standard of living. That period is coming quickly to a close.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#18

Post by jeremytliles » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:28 AM UTC

ja30278 wrote: post #10

ovi256 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Neuter the Department of Labor, get rid of labor regulations with heniously expensive and obnoxious unintended consequences like the mandatory 8-hour work day in California, eliminate the concept of wrongful termination, and put a muzzle on the EPA. Enjoy your third world working conditions. But you are an executive and/or a shareholder, are you not ?

Enjoy _your_ third world economy, free from pesky pollutant-causing industry and manufacturing. The poster has correctly identified the value proposition that causes companies to locate their manufacturing facilities elsewhere, and points out (also correctly) that making our tax codes as unfriendly to business as our labor laws will only encourage _those_ bits of the business to relocate as well. You cannot have all…

Unemployed consumers don't consume.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#19

Post by alf » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:41 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #15

Mr. Grove correctly identifies the problem but avoids the obvious solution, perhaps because it's too painful to articulate. The phenomenally elevated standard of living that we have enjoyed in the U.S. since the end of WWII just isn't sustainable. The Chinese aren't devouring the tech market because they manage their economy. They're doing so because the Chinese worker will work for far, far less than any American wo…

Lets also not forget that millions of people in China were starving 30 years ago. The flow of jobs into China pulled 1 billion people out of poverty. This is not insignificant and is not mentioned enough. Americans will go back to work when we get to valuing intelligence and work ethic again. It may take a while.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#20

Post by Hubbert » Fri, Jul 02, 2010, 1:44 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #17

Hubbert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* cheap products for consumers = higher standard of living. IIRC, consumer products are about 18% of a typical household budget. Housing, healthcare, and education are the majority. For the millions now with ZERO income, even Chinese-made Wal*Mart crap is unaffordable. Yet the unionized workers of the 1950s - 1970's somehow purchased cars, household products, and clothing like domestically-made Levis blue jeans WITHO…

Yet the unionized workers of the 1950s - 1970's somehow purchased cars, household products, and clothing like domestically-made Levis blue jeans WITHOUT slave labor from repressive countries and without borrowing trillions fro those same countries. That was only possible because that time period was a window in which our technological superiority made it possible to provide the average working man with that standard…

Uh, no. Aside from petroleum issues, it was a SUSTAINABLE CLOSED SYSTEM of trade among similarly-developed countries with similar standards. This could continue even if innovation had suddenly stopped in 1985.

Far more sustainable than the present, which involves unsustainable personal debts, unsustainable trade deficits, and unsustainable federal borrowing.

But please note that CENTRAL POINT OF THE ARTICLE explains WHY our technological superiority lessened, rather than moving exponentially further ahead.