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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#271

Post by bb611 »

hueving wrote: post #201
jdswain wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why many people have life insurance. It's probably not common in large parts of the world, and requires a certain income level to pay for, but it can make a situation where a parent dies a lot easier to cope with, at least the financial worries go away, or at least are delayed. In my country (New Zealand) we have a government run, compulsory, insurance scheme for accidents and death. If you die by accident th…

When does the risk increase to a point where it becomes suicide and the insurance doesn't pay out?

Most life insurance policies in the US do pay out for suicide, typically after 12-24 months.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#272

Post by qb45 »

DanBC wrote: post #270
pragone wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. In all seriousness, I do have a hard time guessing which one most children would pick. I can see reasonable arguments made on either side. Personally, I think it would be far more inspiring to have a father who died pursuing his passion, then one w…

Whenever we ask children what they want from their families they always say they want to spend more time with their parents.

> always

Except for those who hate their guts. Or those who distrust them. Or those who are bored by their lifestyle, possibly relevant to this topic.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#273

Post by humanrebar »

aasarava wrote: post #44
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Or maybe what he's saying is, "I would rather my kids learn that they should explore and enjoy the world, rather than never take any big risks." There are a lot of parents in the world. Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is. Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? People who travel for work for days o…

> Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is.

"Judging" is a bit of an overloaded term. I don't think it's OK to call someone human trash for having a risky hobby.

I do think people can say, "You're better than this. Make better choices."

One version is dehumanizing someone for their behavior. The other is (when phrased well) constructive criticism.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#274

Post by 4ad »

thephyber wrote: post #101
pipio21 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not really that risky. It was just an unfortunate accident. It is probably way riskier to practice road cycling or breathing air in a big city(because of diesel particles pollution). This man has been doing this for 24 years, if something diving today with him is safer because of the experience he got. There are extremely risky sports like B.A.S.E, jumpsuit skydiving or freestyle motorbike stunt. This is not th…

> You don't see people around telling smokers: You have children, you should not take risks like this. Not exactly true. If you are in the US in a big city in a blue state, politicians and police say that, but for a slightly different reason.

> politicians and police say that, but for a slightly different reason

So, they don't say that?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#275

Post by pluma »

seanc wrote: post #35
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

I am a father and I agree 100% IMO maaaaybe you could be married with no kids and do this ethically. But with kids? You're rolling the dice on a very important promise. I do struggle with what that line of thinking means for soldiers though.

The way soldiers rationalize it is presumably that they'd argue they're protecting their children by "serving their country". This line of reasoning works a lot better in countries like the US or UK than e.g. Germany (although the sole purpose of the German army by law is to defend the country) but it's easy to guess why Germans don't like putting soldiers on pedestals.

The line of reasoning for firefighters and police officers is likely similar (though IMO the risks in these professions are far more manageable because you're not literally surrounding yourself with people who try to kill you).

In the end I think it's a good thing we talk about these decisions at all and I hope it has not only to do with women (and thus mothers) entering these professions.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#276

Post by ajuc »

throwawaycanada wrote: post #218
aesh2Xa1 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound right. How many cave-going dads are there that you could make the claim? And do a majority of kids believe their fathers are boring? I just don't buy it. And is taking a risk like this the best way to be "not boring?" Definitely don't buy it. You can have fun and be adventurous without taking heavy risks. It's fair to say that someone who continues to put himself at harm is foolish in one capacity…

I don't think it is possible in the literal sense to have adventure without risk.

The risk may be: waste of time, inconvenience, being stuck in an awkward social situation. Not always death.

I'd say taking a sabatical, walking the country asking strangers personal or "deep" questions is an adventure and a risky one, yet you don't risk your life more than by just commuting to work.

I guess risks depend on the country, but are comparable.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#277

Post by 7952 »

pipio21 wrote: post #91
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

It is not really that risky. It was just an unfortunate accident. It is probably way riskier to practice road cycling or breathing air in a big city(because of diesel particles pollution). This man has been doing this for 24 years, if something diving today with him is safer because of the experience he got. There are extremely risky sports like B.A.S.E, jumpsuit skydiving or freestyle motorbike stunt. This is not th…

But I would guess that the difficulty and risk is an essential part of the attraction. Trying to rationalise that risk away seems to be intellectually dishonest. A small percentage will experience the small risk and cause suffering to family. But for all the rest it was an amazing experience that was worth it. Those two things are not contradictory.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#278

Post by qb45 »

always_good wrote: post #269
Chris2048 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure what you are saying. "drop everything" is hyperbole - just drop the things with a higher chance of killing you.

Your comments are a good reminder of why HN needs a per-submission limit on the number of comments a single user can make. Yes, you've shared your point. Now you're dominating the discussion by responding to everyone with the same exact moralizing comment.

Nah, it needs more people using these little arrows which are there for a reason. You may also want to flag if somebody is a real nuisance, moderators can limit such user's posting rate and I think they monitor posts getting lots of flags.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#279

Post by ljf »

gaius wrote: post #265
chimprich wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a caver and I have several cave-diving friends and I think your risk assessment is off by some way. There's maybe a couple of hundred active cave divers in the UK. I guesstimate been a cave-diving death every 5 years or so, so with a bit of guessing we could say your chance of death is 0.1% per year. There were 1,732 road deaths in the UK in 2015 and 45.5 million licence holders. Assuming they all drove at least…

Cave diving in the UK is totally different to the Florida scene. There is almost no overlap in skills and equipment.

Can you elaborate?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#280

Post by ljf »

Does anyone know any more detail about their plan to drill down to him - and is similar rescues have been preformed this way? I'd be interested if the air he was breathing was 'trapped' and if drilling down would release it, and drown him, or if the air had a slow route in and out of the pocket he was in. Fascinating stuff.
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