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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#261

Post by cafebabbe »

vertex-four wrote: post #61
Chris2048 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather than never take any big risks With kids at home? specifically ?! There are ways to enjoy life, or take "risks", that do not involve mortal danger. > Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? .. Someone who commutes .. in a car that has a poor safety rating? Are those as dangerous? If so, then yes, I think so. > People who travel for work for days or weeks at a time? People…

Taken to the extreme, your suggestion would be to never drive a car (or indeed go anywhere near a public road), as that is one of the most dangerous things we do every day. Travelling for a holiday would be a definite no-no, as it's likely more dangerous than staying at home. And so on and so forth.

Anything taken to the extreme is stupid. What's the point exactly ?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#262

Post by johnnyhillbilly »

j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

These guys know what they are doing. The guide rope coming undone may lead to safety improvements for other divers. The divers found themselves in a quite difficult situation, and through skill, resourcefulness and chance managed to find a way for both to come home alive and well.

A child of such a parent surely learns a thing or two about how to manage risk. Since life cannot be lived without risk, I would argue that such knowledge may better the child's chances in life.

Therefore, I argue this may be a better father than one that shies away from "unnecessary" risk.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#263

Post by saiya-jin »

curun1r wrote: post #251
jonahx wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just asked them, in all their ignorance, you're undoubtedly right. If you asked the children who chose the adventurous dad after he had died pursuing his passion, nearly 100% would trade the world to reverse that choice.

Your hypothetical survey method has a literal survivorship bias (and a statistical one...you're not asking the children of parents that took risks and didn't die). Looking at risk the way you're looking at it is a recipe for wasting your life. The better way to think of it is like the way that poker players look at their decision making...don't be outcome oriented. There's a logical, statistical way to do this and it…

very well written comment, thank you.

I'll rather not count these micromorts for me, or I would have to stop some activities (and I just finished paragliding course yesterday)

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#264

Post by Chris2048 »

betenoire wrote: post #207
Chris2048 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have the answers?!? Please share. Did I claim to? Anyone that dares suggests standards of safety should exist, must be omniscient first? And yes,I think those things should be regulated too. To extent that they practically can, they are - you can be cautioned for not driving with due care and attention.

You originally asked me if "identity investment in something life-risking really compatible with reasonable parenting?" I've tried to show that's not a fair question since we don't agree what is reasonable parenting or what is risk. But yes, it is compatible because it is the only way. Consider this, until recently, conception through birth was quite likely to kill you. It didn't get much riskier than having kids, ye…

We don't agree, but what does that matter? Nothing stops coming up with a proper standard - such a thing already exists to some extent.

The example of childbirth has more factors to it - other than it being required to further the human race, there is a biological imperative to do it. Plus, in the past, women didn't always have as much choice.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#265

Post by gaius »

chimprich wrote: post #254
A_Person wrote: post #208

I'd like to address the false assumption in this thread that cave diving is more dangerous than driving a car! I cave dive on a regular basis with two other guys. We've dived together as a team for nearly 10 years. I'm late 60s and single, the second guy is 50s and has a partner but no children, and the third is early 40s with a six-year-old, who he has every intention of seeing grow-up into adulthood. We often dive…

I'm a caver and I have several cave-diving friends and I think your risk assessment is off by some way. There's maybe a couple of hundred active cave divers in the UK. I guesstimate been a cave-diving death every 5 years or so, so with a bit of guessing we could say your chance of death is 0.1% per year. There were 1,732 road deaths in the UK in 2015 and 45.5 million licence holders. Assuming they all drove at least…

Cave diving in the UK is totally different to the Florida scene. There is almost no overlap in skills and equipment.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#266

Post by chmod775 »

hueving wrote: post #201
jdswain wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why many people have life insurance. It's probably not common in large parts of the world, and requires a certain income level to pay for, but it can make a situation where a parent dies a lot easier to cope with, at least the financial worries go away, or at least are delayed. In my country (New Zealand) we have a government run, compulsory, insurance scheme for accidents and death. If you die by accident th…

When does the risk increase to a point where it becomes suicide and the insurance doesn't pay out?

Why should it matter whether it was suicide or not?

"Heh, I'm going to kill myself so I don't have to work to support my family and they can have insurance money instead" is not a thought many people would have.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#267

Post by sokoloff »

Chris2048 wrote: post #194
gpawl wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I love diving, and I love my kids. But I can't rent kids for just a few years [ok, excepting foster parenting]. Having a child introduces complexity, and "drop everything for 15 years" is only one possible answer.

I'm not really sure what you are saying. "drop everything" is hyperbole - just drop the things with a higher chance of killing you.

To follow this advice, most parents in America would do well to stop driving and exercise more, including me.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#268

Post by sokoloff »

neurotech1 wrote: post #149
myrandomcomment wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Wife and I were both skydivers. We have not jumped since my daughter was born. To be honest, it is not because it is unsafe (there is a risk just driving to the drop zone) but because of the life insurance that we now carry. That being said, even if I still jumped I would not do some of the other items around it like is used to (BASE jumping for example).

One of the ironies is that test pilots have trouble getting life insurance, yet its extremely rare that a test pilot for a major aerospace company has a serious accident. I can think of two crashes involving test pilots in recent years that resulted in fatalities (or serious injuries) [0] https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20110402-... [1] https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=188544

Virgin also lost Spaceship Two with one fatality in 2014 and Swearingen lost an SJ30 prototype in 2003. (The second is arguably is or is not in recent years.)

Military and E-AB (Experimental-Amateur Built) aircraft also have a higher than normal flight ops fatality rate, which speaks to the test pilot insurance rate, not directly to "routine testing of new civilian aircraft" level of safety.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#269

Post by always_good »

Chris2048 wrote: post #194
gpawl wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I love diving, and I love my kids. But I can't rent kids for just a few years [ok, excepting foster parenting]. Having a child introduces complexity, and "drop everything for 15 years" is only one possible answer.

I'm not really sure what you are saying. "drop everything" is hyperbole - just drop the things with a higher chance of killing you.

Your comments are a good reminder of why HN needs a per-submission limit on the number of comments a single user can make.

Yes, you've shared your point. Now you're dominating the discussion by responding to everyone with the same exact moralizing comment.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#270

Post by DanBC »

pragone wrote: post #166
rdtsc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. > The good news is that once you become a father, you'll get to decide (possibly with a partner) what the acceptable level of risk is for you and your family. That's a obvious. What I think is being questioned is if they made a good decision. In othe…

> Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. In all seriousness, I do have a hard time guessing which one most children would pick. I can see reasonable arguments made on either side. Personally, I think it would be far more inspiring to have a father who died pursuing his passion, then one w…

Whenever we ask children what they want from their families they always say they want to spend more time with their parents.
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