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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#211

Post by xixor2 »

j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

So can you give a list of hobbies or activities that are or aren't allowed with children at home?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#212

Post by jpatokal »

A_Person wrote: post #208

I'd like to address the false assumption in this thread that cave diving is more dangerous than driving a car! I cave dive on a regular basis with two other guys. We've dived together as a team for nearly 10 years. I'm late 60s and single, the second guy is 50s and has a partner but no children, and the third is early 40s with a six-year-old, who he has every intention of seeing grow-up into adulthood. We often dive…

And what happens when the fixed line breaks, somebody kicks up a little silt and you get disoriented as well? (Which is exactly what happened in the article.)

FWIW, I've done exactly one cavern dive, in cold water with low visibility. It scared the crap out of me: as an amateur, it's difficult even to figure out which way is up, never mind the other directions. (Yes, air bubbles go up, so just breathe out right? Easier said than verified when you're encased in a crust of diving gear, freezing and hyperventilating.) As a wise man said, I'm not sure how cave divers get their massive cojones through all those cramped passageways...

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#213

Post by cbr »

A_Person wrote: post #208

I'd like to address the false assumption in this thread that cave diving is more dangerous than driving a car! I cave dive on a regular basis with two other guys. We've dived together as a team for nearly 10 years. I'm late 60s and single, the second guy is 50s and has a partner but no children, and the third is early 40s with a six-year-old, who he has every intention of seeing grow-up into adulthood. We often dive…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort has a single scuba dive as having the same risk of death as ~1700 miles in a car. And cave diving is even more dangerous.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#214

Post by jonahx »

pragone wrote: post #166
rdtsc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. > The good news is that once you become a father, you'll get to decide (possibly with a partner) what the acceptable level of risk is for you and your family. That's a obvious. What I think is being questioned is if they made a good decision. In othe…

> Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. In all seriousness, I do have a hard time guessing which one most children would pick. I can see reasonable arguments made on either side. Personally, I think it would be far more inspiring to have a father who died pursuing his passion, then one w…

If you just asked them, in all their ignorance, you're undoubtedly right. If you asked the children who chose the adventurous dad after he had died pursuing his passion, nearly 100% would trade the world to reverse that choice.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#215

Post by gameshot911 »

A_Person wrote: post #208

I'd like to address the false assumption in this thread that cave diving is more dangerous than driving a car! I cave dive on a regular basis with two other guys. We've dived together as a team for nearly 10 years. I'm late 60s and single, the second guy is 50s and has a partner but no children, and the third is early 40s with a six-year-old, who he has every intention of seeing grow-up into adulthood. We often dive…

Can you share the most dangerous moment you've ever been in, despite all precautions?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#216

Post by PhasmaFelis »

pipio21 wrote: post #91
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

It is not really that risky. It was just an unfortunate accident. It is probably way riskier to practice road cycling or breathing air in a big city(because of diesel particles pollution). This man has been doing this for 24 years, if something diving today with him is safer because of the experience he got. There are extremely risky sports like B.A.S.E, jumpsuit skydiving or freestyle motorbike stunt. This is not th…

> You don't see people around telling smokers: You have children, you should not take risks like this.

I absolutely do see that, although it's more often about not exposing your kids to smoke than specifically about saving the parent's life. (Which makes sense if the concern is child welfare, since smoking deaths typically come at an age where most people's kids are full-grown.)

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#217

Post by iaw »

cbr wrote: post #213
A_Person wrote: post #208

I'd like to address the false assumption in this thread that cave diving is more dangerous than driving a car! I cave dive on a regular basis with two other guys. We've dived together as a team for nearly 10 years. I'm late 60s and single, the second guy is 50s and has a partner but no children, and the third is early 40s with a six-year-old, who he has every intention of seeing grow-up into adulthood. We often dive…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort has a single scuba dive as having the same risk of death as ~1700 miles in a car. And cave diving is even more dangerous.

More interestingly, running a marathon is equally fatal as scuba diving.

Unfortunately I think the scuba-diving in this list includes every type of scuba and not the riskier types focused on in the articles linked in this thread.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#218

Post by throwawaycanada »

aesh2Xa1 wrote: post #160
andrewfong wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. Not that it necessarily changes the argument, but the "choice" is probabilistic. That is, it isn't father at home vs. dead, but "probably boring dad but most likely alive" vs. "maybe famous dad but some chance of death".

That doesn't sound right. How many cave-going dads are there that you could make the claim? And do a majority of kids believe their fathers are boring? I just don't buy it. And is taking a risk like this the best way to be "not boring?" Definitely don't buy it. You can have fun and be adventurous without taking heavy risks. It's fair to say that someone who continues to put himself at harm is foolish in one capacity…

I don't think it is possible in the literal sense to have adventure without risk.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#219

Post by throwawaycanada »

pragone wrote: post #166
rdtsc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. > The good news is that once you become a father, you'll get to decide (possibly with a partner) what the acceptable level of risk is for you and your family. That's a obvious. What I think is being questioned is if they made a good decision. In othe…

> Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. In all seriousness, I do have a hard time guessing which one most children would pick. I can see reasonable arguments made on either side. Personally, I think it would be far more inspiring to have a father who died pursuing his passion, then one w…

Personally I would feel very selfish if I asked my dad to give up his passion in life just so I know there would be a slightly greater chance of him being safe. Especially if two years later he died of cancer or something. We all die.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#220

Post by kbenson »

lsaferite wrote: post #206
kbenson wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the better way to word this is likely "having your primary support halved does not help". It's likely to forestall the obvious insurance rebuttal by not specifically tying itself to financial concerns, as emotional and educational support are at least as important, if not more so, in my opinion.

> having your primary support halved That's assuming a two parent income. What if one parent stays home with the children instead of working? Yes, you can get insurance. No, it doesn't replace a lost parent.

> That's assuming a two parent income.

No, it's specifically worded to not be just about income. That was the point of rewording it as "support".

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