Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's also the mundane question of money. Unless you're already rich, raising a child alone is hard in many counts already; having your income halved does not help.
That is why many people have life insurance. It's probably not common in large parts of the world, and requires a certain income level to pay for, but it can make a situation where a parent dies a lot easier to cope with, at least the financial worries go away, or at least are delayed. In my country (New Zealand) we have a government run, compulsory, insurance scheme for accidents and death. If you die by accident th…
Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
201–210 of 320 posts
Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#202Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
> become an integral part of who you are You can say that about anything. Smoking, alcohol, racism, leftism ( jk :-D ) But is identity investment in something life-risking really compatible with reasonable parenting? that's the question.
That's the balancing part, no? Nothing is risk-free, and the implied dichotomy is misleading. You can be a wreckless fool without the dangerous hobbies. Also implied is that we can even agree what "reasonable parenting" means.
Ironic, since by using the term "risk free", you are the one implying a dichotomy: either something has risk or it doesn't.
It's technically true but that's unhelpful, since risk is not a binary value: it's a spectrum. Certain hobbies and jobs are demonstrably more risky than others.
Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#204Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#205When you're learning to cave dive, one of the first things that you learn is that you may very well die in there. Most of the training focuses on systems, skills repetition, and understanding and using redundant systems - folks getting into cave diving typically are already extremely experienced divers who if anything need only some minor skill tweaks - most cave instructors will not take on students who don't alread…
This is particularly relevant since the stilt obscuring the cave is precisely what led to the incident described in this article. It's not clear it happened because the divers were careless or despite them, but I thought it would be worth pointing out to non divers that one of the many things you learn while studying for cave diving is how to occupy a lot less space while swimming than you're used to.
Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's also the mundane question of money. Unless you're already rich, raising a child alone is hard in many counts already; having your income halved does not help.
I think the better way to word this is likely "having your primary support halved does not help". It's likely to forestall the obvious insurance rebuttal by not specifically tying itself to financial concerns, as emotional and educational support are at least as important, if not more so, in my opinion.
That's assuming a two parent income. What if one parent stays home with the children instead of working? Yes, you can get insurance. No, it doesn't replace a lost parent.
Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
Give me what a reasonable parent does in a car. Do they turn around and talk to their kids? Do they pass a bottle back there for the baby? Do they change the radio station? After than, I have questions about reasonable parenting when hiking in the foothills. How much water should I be required to bring? I could go on and on regarding the gray areas of life. You have the answers?!? Please share.
> You have the answers?!? Please share. Did I claim to? Anyone that dares suggests standards of safety should exist, must be omniscient first? And yes,I think those things should be regulated too. To extent that they practically can, they are - you can be cautioned for not driving with due care and attention.
I've tried to show that's not a fair question since we don't agree what is reasonable parenting or what is risk. But yes, it is compatible because it is the only way.
Consider this, until recently, conception through birth was quite likely to kill you. It didn't get much riskier than having kids, yet people still chose to have them. Over and over. So yes, risk is what life is made of.
Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#208I cave dive on a regular basis with two other guys. We've dived together as a team for nearly 10 years. I'm late 60s and single, the second guy is 50s and has a partner but no children, and the third is early 40s with a six-year-old, who he has every intention of seeing grow-up into adulthood.
We often dive in a system comprising a complex maze of 8kms of underwater tunnels. Some are large, and would fit several divers across, but some are small, and you can barely squeeze through. The only entry to and exit from this system is a small pond, about 6 feet across and 4 feet deep, just big enough for one person to get in at a time. Then you scrunch yourself up, and drop down through a slot to enter the system.
We'd generally go about 700m into this system, making up to 13 seperate navigational decisions (left? right? straight ahead?) which we have to reverse precisely to get back out at the end. This is all completely underwater, there's no air anywhere except for two air pockets hundreds of meters apart. As I like to say, in cave diving there is no UP – there is only OUT!
It all sounds pretty dangerous, right? Wrong.
NAVIGATION. The whole system is set up with fixed lines, each of which has a numbered marker every 50m or so. Before each dive, we consult the map, and plan exactly where we're going to go. I commit that plan to memory, write it down on a wrist slate, and also in a notebook which I take underwater. All three of us do this independently. Underwater, when we come to a junction, each of us checks the direction to go, then marks the exit direction with a personal marker. If anyone makes a mistake, for example, turns in the wrong direction, or forgets to leave a personal marker, the other two pick that up immediately. On the way back, when we get to each junction, each of us checks that it's the junction we expected, and we can see our personal markers. Each individual's markers can be distinguished by feel alone, so we could get the whole way back, separately, in total darkness, if we had to. So the odds of us getting lost in the system are very low.
LIGHT. These caves are absolutely pitch black, so naturally you need a torch. In fact, nine torches! Each of us individually has a multi-thousand-lumen canister battery light, plus 2 backup torches, each of which would last the whole dive. I could also navigate by the light of my dive computer screen, and I'm considering carrying a cyalume chemical lightstick as well. So then I personally would have five different sources of light, and we'd need 11 sources of light to fail before the team would be left in the dark. The risk of this happening is basically zero.
GAS. Each of us has two tanks in a fully redundant setup. If one side fails, we just go to the other and call the dive. In fact, our gas planning allows one diver's entire gas supply to fail, at the point of maximum penetration, and either one of the other two divers could get that guy back, plus himself, without relying on the third diver at all. However, gas is certainly a limited resource underwater, so it's always on our minds, and all three of us will turn the dive as soon as anyone hits their safety limit.
There's lots more equipment involved, but let's leave it there for the moment, and turn our attention to...
DRIVING! Each of us lives >400 km away from that system. So there and back is a five hour drive. During that drive, you could fall asleep and run off the road; have local fauna run out in front of your car; get head-on crashed by drunken drivers, and so on. Several of those are external risks that are not under our control.
So the simple fact of the matter is this. Our cave dives are almost certainly SIGNIFICANTLY SAFER than driving to and from the dive site! The cave dives carry significant potential risks, but most of those are mitigated with proper training and equipment. Whereas there's not much I can do to stop a drunken driver running head-on into me.
Certainly there are risks like tunnels collapsing and blocking the exit. But statistically, I'm sure that those are orders of magnitude less likely than having a heart attack, or falling over and breaking your neck.
Hope that helps :-)
Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#209I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…
The odds of dying of a car accident are +- 5 times higher than scuba diving.
Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Should we strive for an equal society? As such, shouldn't all children be born with equally (or minimally) committed parents? I wasn't sure what you meant by "equal society," everyones different, the only way to get "equal" where all children have "equally" committed parents, would be quite homogenous. The main point I think I'll reiterate, is that yes, you are assuming the amount of risk this person took. The amou…
I'm still not sure, but yes - a child shouldn't be exposed to unusual, or high levels of risk due to the "attitude of the parent". This person knows more than I do about diving, but not necessarily about risk; A doctor who studies lung cancer might know more about the risks of smoking than a life-long smoker.