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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#81

Post by vertex-four »

Chris2048 wrote: post #75
vertex-four wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taken to the extreme, your suggestion would be to never drive a car (or indeed go anywhere near a public road), as that is one of the most dangerous things we do every day. Travelling for a holiday would be a definite no-no, as it's likely more dangerous than staying at home. And so on and so forth.

> Taken to the extreme True, so let's not take to the extreme. Risk-adversion is a quantitative, not qualitative, practise. I'm not saying minimising risk is the only goal in life, but avoiding very high risks is - do you think cave diving is no riskier than driving a car on the motorway?

In that case, we have to define "very high risks" - is it literally just anything more dangerous than driving? if so, why do we stop at driving, why couldn't we be safer? - and then compare "number of cave divers" vs "number of deaths", and then figure out the subcategories of cave divers who're most likely to die and figure out whether this theoretical person falls into them, and so on and so forth.

Taking a specific incident and combining it with "that sounds dangerous" is not likely to come up with anything meaningful.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#82

Post by Mz »

j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

"I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix"

I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either groups of people care to comment?

It is easy to assume that this is the entire picture, but this likely is not true. Perhaps if he were not a cave diver, he would be an alcoholic or a drug addict or beat his kids. We don't know and even if the author does, he likely would not share such information. The world would absolutely not be more supportive of his choices if he tried to justify them with "It's either this or (something far worse)."

If he is actually an adrenaline junkie, this is a matter of brain wiring. It is not a choice. When you are born with something like that, the best you can do is try to channel it as constructively as possible instead of letting it lead to trouble.

There are plenty of people in the world who are criminals, alcoholics, addicts, shit-stirrers of some sort and various other bad things. Adrenaline junkies are sometimes firefighters, EMTs, or soldiers. Those who can't be those things have hobbies like this.

I am a parent. In fact, I was a homemaker and full time mom for a lot of years. I have special needs kids who still live with me, even though they are both adults. I am generally interpreted by the world as a very devoted mother, which is generally accurate.

But I learned long ago that I need to make sure to get my own needs met. I can't live for my kids alone. Doing that goes bad places. I can't be a good parent if I don't first deal with what the woman in the mirror needs to get through the damn day without going ballistic.

I don't need an adrenaline fix and I am not a cave diver. But we all need different things and that metric generalizes. I have seen lots of parents do terrible things because they failed to "put their own oxygen mask on first."

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#84

Post by enimodas »

benzofuran wrote: post #18

When you're learning to cave dive, one of the first things that you learn is that you may very well die in there. Most of the training focuses on systems, skills repetition, and understanding and using redundant systems - folks getting into cave diving typically are already extremely experienced divers who if anything need only some minor skill tweaks - most cave instructors will not take on students who don't alread…

I would recommend this well written article: https://www.outsideonline.com/1922711/raising-dead

It's the story about the diver David Shaw and his attempt to recover the body of diver Deon Dreyer in one of the deepest sweetwater caves on earth. A bit of a read but well worth it.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#85

Post by fit2rule »

avh02 wrote: post #69
fit2rule wrote: post #26

I'm quite surprised at the detail that the rescuers attempted to drill into the cave from above in order to provide supplies .. is anyone familiar with the depth of the cave pocket? This seems like a surprising choice to make given the logistics - but I guess a safer one, in the end .. assuming one has a drill system available and the depth is not too great.

to follow up on depth (not just from a difficulty point of view), if care isn't taken - i'd assume that once there's a pathway to the surface, the water pressure would push the air out and drown him. I also assume they're experts who know what they're doing, but at the same time, I guess there'd be too many unknown unless there was some established air-tight drilling technique specifically for this type of scenario?

To be honest, its a fascinating scenario which leaves many questions. I'm going to have to ask my geology friends if there is such a thing as an air-tight drilling technique that would not have resulted in the scenario you describe - google-fu doesn't seem to produce results - but I imagine there might be some sort of air-tight sleeve that can be used at the head of the shaft, which may as well be rather thin diameter for this scenario, after all ..

What I'm curious about is whether these cave-divers used this procedure, because they were prepared for it in some capacity. I mean, they managed to start - and then abandon - the idea, in a few hours.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#86

Post by wfunction »

aasarava wrote: post #44
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Or maybe what he's saying is, "I would rather my kids learn that they should explore and enjoy the world, rather than never take any big risks." There are a lot of parents in the world. Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is. Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? People who travel for work for days o…

I think the complaint was that the parent had a young child, not merely a child.

Without actually taking a stance on the topic, it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents, i.e. it's not just your life you're messing around with. When they stop being your dependents, do whatever you want, it's just your life now (and I guess your spouse's, who is presumably fine with what you do).

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#87

Post by manarth »

avh02 wrote: post #69
fit2rule wrote: post #26

I'm quite surprised at the detail that the rescuers attempted to drill into the cave from above in order to provide supplies .. is anyone familiar with the depth of the cave pocket? This seems like a surprising choice to make given the logistics - but I guess a safer one, in the end .. assuming one has a drill system available and the depth is not too great.

to follow up on depth (not just from a difficulty point of view), if care isn't taken - i'd assume that once there's a pathway to the surface, the water pressure would push the air out and drown him. I also assume they're experts who know what they're doing, but at the same time, I guess there'd be too many unknown unless there was some established air-tight drilling technique specifically for this type of scenario?

The description is of an inland site, above sea level. It's a natural air pocket, so already has a connection to air at ground level (although with limited air-exchange). Drilling through wouldn't significantly change the air-pressure differential, just increase the capacity to exchange exhausted air for fresh air.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#88

Post by Chris2048 »

vertex-four wrote: post #81
Chris2048 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taken to the extreme True, so let's not take to the extreme. Risk-adversion is a quantitative, not qualitative, practise. I'm not saying minimising risk is the only goal in life, but avoiding very high risks is - do you think cave diving is no riskier than driving a car on the motorway?

In that case, we have to define "very high risks" - is it literally just anything more dangerous than driving? if so, why do we stop at driving, why couldn't we be safer? - and then compare "number of cave divers" vs "number of deaths", and then figure out the subcategories of cave divers who're most likely to die and figure out whether this theoretical person falls into them, and so on and so forth. Taking a specifi…

Well, that was an example, not a proposal to an official risk limit.

But maybe - you'd need a proper analysis of the relative risk. Isn't that done with cars/driving? All sorts of vehicle legislation may be driven (npi) by driving incident data / risk analysis.

> Taking a specific incident and combining it with "that sounds dangerous"

I'm not. I think it sounds dangerous before this specific incident. But you are right - a meaningful, proper analysis would be appropriate. I'm not saying my suggestion is enough, I am saying, maybe something formal would be appropriate.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#89

Post by ajarmst »

ajarmst wrote: post #83

Reminded me of the very sad story of Peter Verhulsel: http://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/11/12/Scuba-diver-lost-in-c...

I'm a qualified advanced recreational diver, and most diving by properly-trained (not 'quick tutorial at the dock' like a lot of tourists get) divers has a very manageable level of risk, even at altitude or under ice. Cave diving and mixture diving (esp. in overhead environments like the Andrea Doria) is well beyond my personal acceptable-risk horizon, but most of the people who go there are extremely experienced, well-equipped and cogniscant of the risks and how to mitigate them. (Those that aren't tend to die or learn they really shouldn't be there very fast). I would never call it safe, but thise that go there (or, say, K2) aren't being foolhardy.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#90

Post by idlewords »

enimodas wrote: post #84
benzofuran wrote: post #18

When you're learning to cave dive, one of the first things that you learn is that you may very well die in there. Most of the training focuses on systems, skills repetition, and understanding and using redundant systems - folks getting into cave diving typically are already extremely experienced divers who if anything need only some minor skill tweaks - most cave instructors will not take on students who don't alread…

I would recommend this well written article: https://www.outsideonline.com/1922711/raising-dead It's the story about the diver David Shaw and his attempt to recover the body of diver Deon Dreyer in one of the deepest sweetwater caves on earth. A bit of a read but well worth it.

This is not cave diving, though. It's a very deep sinkhole, but with a clear path to the surface. The risks in these dives are related to extreme depth, not to the overhead environment.

That said, it's a terrific article.

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