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Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

reuters.com

221–230 of 232 posts

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#221

If you view human beings as perfectly rational machines then dress codes make no sense, but that's not what we are. Dressing formally puts you in a different frame of mind. It reminds you that your work is serious and that different standards apply to how you act and talk than in your casual personal life. If you dress to work the way you'd show up to a dive bar, then you're that much closer to behaving like you do a…

Regarding hard to adopt class signifiers, this is definitely true, however, this is the case regardless of whether everyone is wearing a suit or an anime t-shirt. As for the second part, that's also true, but the argument is a bit moot because having a "smart casual" dress code is not really that much different than a suit dress code. It is casual only in name. When I hear casual I think of a job I had where people wore almost anything they wanted (from "smart casual" to sports jerseys with low-hanging shorts) And I didn't notice any dress-based discrimination there, not even subtle.

But my main problem with the idea in the article is:

> The problem is this: If everything is casual, what exactly do you do to show your seriousness?

> There isn’t such a simple way to visually demonstrate you are determined to join the ranks of the upwardly mobile. Looking smart on “casual Friday” may get you a better date, but the boss will not sit up and take notice.

You show this through professional accomplishments - deep and wide technical ability, doing your job well, being reliable, resolving problems others get stuck on, ending up as one of the people both coworkers and clients gravitate towards for advice/help with difficult problems and so on. This stuff gets noticed.

The author seems to hold the view that it should be possible to rise up by playing the game of workplace social dynamics and that the fact that this is difficult in our field compared to more traditional fields presents a problem. But is that really a bad thing?

He is likely not a software developer, but I've heard this "I don't know what I have to do to be taken more seriously" sentiment (only a couple of times) from people in SD. However those were people who were weaker technically but had a strong desire to get ahead, manage projects and people, etc. Their problem had nothing to do with discrimination based on social class and everything to do with discrimination of superficial and/or narrow professional knowledge. At most companies, expertise shows, and usually very quickly.

His "positive" example of China etc is:

> The young and ambitious really can set themselves apart from the slackers, even if doing so looks conformist and stifling when multiplied and observed on a larger scale. Societies of upward mobility, when based on large and growing business enterprises, look and feel somewhat oppressive. Much as many of us might not want to admit it, the casual and the egalitarian are closer to enemies than to allies.

But why would we even want the "young and ambitious" to set themselves apart through the way they dress or by conforming in other ways, and why would we want to decide who is a "slacker" based on that? People can set themselves apart by being exceptional at what they do. Nobody can claim this doesn't, overall, work very well in the software industry. The author is basically complaining about the lack of ability to advance in your career through superficial means.

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you want a job at google but work at a bank, wear Hawaiian shirts and shorts? Also, over dressing can be as much of a problem as underdressing. If you came to a def interview at say Facebook in a suit, it could get awkward.

Well, obviously that was an advice given by a working man trying to punch above his weight and be treated seriously in situations where most people from his background weren't. It worked for him, and it worked for me when I was looking for jobs, houses, had to do official business and run a company. I suppose a situation like you described has never crossed my dad's mind because it's just such a unique problem to hav…

Ideologies defy common sense; if someone believes a suit is always appropriate, they might not accept that there are contexts where it isn't. Likewise the other way around.

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think finance is overall a worse deal, I used to think it was the panacea of making money. There is the chance that you can make 600 - 800k in finance as a senior developer, but you need to either be incredibly intelligent or incredibly hard working, generally you need an ivy league degree. A year or so ago I received an offer from a well known quant hedge fund, I spoke to a google recruiter to see if they…

That recruiter must have been pretty inexperienced to talk like that. You should seriously question your compensation if a recruiter is willing to top you up 50k without a second thought. Chances are you are severely underpaid.

It was a google in house recruiter. The firm I had an offer from was known to hire highly vetted people

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#224
I once saw a press release about Goldman or one of these other big money firms and how they were going to build software "like a startup". In the photo that accompanied it were a group of guys wearing hoodies that had some lame slogan on it, trying to woo Silicon Valley talent to come to finance by showing how they were cool now.

Under the hoodies were expensive shirts and ties.

The picture had exactly the opposite effect of what it intended- it showed how fake and false the 'culture' they were portraying was.

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#225
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the payscale between the both vs type of work A hoodie-wearer at FB or Apple probably out-earns the majority of suit-wearers at Goldman - it is definitely not about money, just about attitude.

>>> A hoodie-wearer at FB or Apple probably out-earns the majority of suit-wearers at Goldman - it is definitely not about money, just about attitude. Sorry but it's highly unlikely.

As a current Goldman Strat I can confirm that the hoodie-wearer is certainly out earning the majority. Only the traders are paid well, everyone else is on a less than competitive wage based on an illusion of how it "used to be". Historically (10+ years ago) the total compensation was accounted for by a big bonus but these days it is non existent.

Almost every VP I know in NYC/LDN makes less than a fresh grad at Google in the bay area.

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#226
post #224

I once saw a press release about Goldman or one of these other big money firms and how they were going to build software "like a startup". In the photo that accompanied it were a group of guys wearing hoodies that had some lame slogan on it, trying to woo Silicon Valley talent to come to finance by showing how they were cool now. Under the hoodies were expensive shirts and ties. The picture had exactly the opposite e…

This was Goldman, particularly Marty Chavez who is otherwise a very smart character originating from from outside banking (Stanford Phd).

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#227
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far back do you have to go for finance to beat tech in pay?

Finance already beats tech, apart from that small handful of ultra high paying roles in that handful of companies like Google.

Only if you are a Trader or an Investment Banker (note not the other 98% of people working at the firm i.e. Tech, Quant, Operations, Finance, HR) in which case you are already the handful of people such as the ultra high paid at Google as either your career is going to be very short once they find out you can't make money or you are very good (very few people) and you will make a fortune.

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#228
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For engineers it almost always does, unless you are the top .001% of talent.

In London at least this was not the case. Startup salaries today are often at the same level as bank internships. The US (particularly SF) is a very different market.

You are comparing a bank to a startup which is an absurd comparison. Compare Goldman to Google and guess what Google wins (even in London).

Banking salaries have been static for 10+ years. Bank internship salaries are designed to allure and impress but 5+ years in and the salary does not change.

On another note there are some startups who can pay very very well in London but they do not advertise these salaries.

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think finance is overall a worse deal, I used to think it was the panacea of making money. There is the chance that you can make 600 - 800k in finance as a senior developer, but you need to either be incredibly intelligent or incredibly hard working, generally you need an ivy league degree. A year or so ago I received an offer from a well known quant hedge fund, I spoke to a google recruiter to see if they…

That recruiter must have been pretty inexperienced to talk like that. You should seriously question your compensation if a recruiter is willing to top you up 50k without a second thought. Chances are you are severely underpaid.

When you have another offer on the table the best move for the recruiter is to make the serious offer then and there and try take care of the situation to avoid any further bidding.

They want you for as cheap as they can get you but if someone else is willing to pay more then almost always they can afford it.

Re: Goldman Sachs relaxes dress code for techs in fight for talent

#230
post #87

Are salaries in IB tech on that level today? I doubt even a senior quant hedge fund / HFT firm developer makes anywhere near the quoted $400k.

I think 400 is likely attainable for the hedge funds, no idea about other fields. The HFT guys pay about 250 (total comp, e.g, salary and bonuses) for a newly minted PhD.

No way. £250K for a new Ph.D. with zero experience in industry? Even a low latency whiz kid with deep Linux kernel optimisation will just about maybe make £250K in a very good year.
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