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Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

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Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#421

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

> 1. If the employee is only motivated by money, he will be gone rather sooner than later as there is always a higher offer around.

Do you have a lot of millionaires trying to join your startup as an employee? If you don't, then money is probably a major motivating factor for all of your employees.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when this company has > 100,000 emploees and has individual divisions with more engineers than Google

What does the company's size have to do with whether or not you are being paid the amount of money you want?

Because they set industry standards for pay which is why the pay suppression cartel was so important

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#423
post #7

I'm reluctant to apply this mindset to the tech, or at least SV tech, industry. While it's common practice to hop jobs every 2-5 years, it seems to be more for new or different opportunities (Different sized company, a new domain, new technical challenges, etc.) than it is for a more competitive offer. Internal promotion, both in compensation and position, seems to be the relative norm.

I'm at the point where I think developers should bid on specific projects and not be full time employees, ever.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#424

I don't get people who say, "Well I would never hire someone who has never worked more than 5 years at a single place!!!" I would never have increased my from $68k to $115k in 5 years.I probably would've been somewhere at like $80k right now at best if I was didn't switch jobs twice. If it means some hiring manager is going say some snarky opinion, then yes I'll take my extra money.

On the other hand, look at it from a hiring manager's perspective: people who have stayed in a job long enough to see how things go wrong are also less expensive. I'll be honest, if I'm looking at a CV for someone with 10 years of experience and they have changed jobs every year or two, I will suspect that they are missing some pretty important experience as a senior developer. Everybody makes serious mistakes that d…

> Everybody makes serious mistakes that don't show themselves for years.

I'd rephrase that as simply knowing the trade offs, knowing in which conditions your solution is valid, and estimating how long these conditions will be present, and then estimating what's next, and then taking that into account when choosing a solution (and trade offs).

Some people are absolutely terrible at estimating change and pace. Some people don't see when it's time to involve higher ups, and some don't know when to do the inverse of that.

> Those who don't stick around usually assume that any mistakes they find in their new company were due to incompetence.

That's too general, but also not completely unfair.

> Similarly, people who have not stuck around for years have never been instrumental in doing difficult culture transformations, or fixing long term architectural problems.

Again, too general. Maybe you get hired for a transformation/migration/rewrite project, and basically you have a good chance to be hired as the Captain for the mighty Failship.

And now let's discuss how all of the aforementioned are discussed to death in [Project] Management 101, and all of the following are discussed to death in [People] Management 101, yet what you write is still valid as ever.

> It's truly unfortunate that the industry rewards those who don't tackle these kinds of difficult problems.

Industry is full of incompetent showmen, useless middle managers, and a lot of extremely biased, uncompromising, uncooperative, power-hungry completely regular but overstressed underloved normal guys/gals.

Yet society has a freak approach to freaks, because people think oh fuck them, why can't they just behave, but when I freak out, it's because reasons. And when Joe from IT is a social trainwreck then it's ostracization time!

> The legacy is an industry where the problems are ubiquitous: flavour of the month architecture, my way or the highway bullying, either process of the month or "pragmatic" (aka ad hoc) processes, absolute disrespect for coworkers (I'm the only one with an ounce of sense).

Yes, indeed. And this largely happens in other industrial sectors, but since change is slower there, these problems usually don't present themselves so acutely.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#425

I don't get people who say, "Well I would never hire someone who has never worked more than 5 years at a single place!!!" I would never have increased my from $68k to $115k in 5 years.I probably would've been somewhere at like $80k right now at best if I was didn't switch jobs twice. If it means some hiring manager is going say some snarky opinion, then yes I'll take my extra money.

I had the same experience with the same numbers too. Except I've now been at my current employer for about 5 years, after accepting a matching offer a few times. I would never be anywhere near where I am had I stayed at those first few companies.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#426

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

I owned a web company and anytime an employee told me they had another job offer they were considering, I either let them go or started recruiting. I never wanted to keep someone on let alone give them a raise if they were considering leaving. If they came to me and wanted a change in their job or salary I'd work with them, but as soon as you considered my business "one of your options" instead of where you enjoyed working, it was time to move on.

This was a small company though. I'm sure larger companies where mid-level management is in charge of hiring, the strategy of taking competing offers to your boss works well.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#427

What makes the most sense to me is making moves early on in your career then hopefully finding a company/CEO/team you really like and settle in for a while. You aren't going to learn some of the valuable lessons if you swap jobs too often as you will never really become an expert at what you're doing. Certainly valid you are underpaid and don't particularly enjoy your job.

Not bad advice, but be careful to calibrate "like" correctly, which can be difficult. In the land of the blind, a one-eyed man is king. It's easy to get comfortable in a group of nice people that just aren't very good developers, and believe that you're becoming an expert at something, and then by the time you get slapped in the face by reality, it might be too late. Switching jobs every few years ensures exposure to a much wider range of people, skills and group dynamics.

Every time I've switched jobs, I've had my eyes opened to some things that we did at my previous jobs that might not have been helpful.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Job 2: 47% raise from base (10 months in Job 1) Job 3: 30% raise from base (9 months in Job 2 - relocated to Bay Area) Job 4: 32% raise from base (3 months in Job 3) Job 5: 10% raise from base (10 months in Job 4) Job 6: 0% raise from base, 25% raise from base in RSUs/bonuses (22 months in Job 5) This is spanning 4 1/2 years, and even turning down up to as high as $400k in total comp between job 4 and 5, which would…

I really wish it was as easy to get this outside of the Bay Area. I don't really want to move to the Bay Area (nor does my girlfriend) but I've been stuck making just over half of your current total comp out near Chicago after almost 10 years of experience in various tech stacks. I know in theory it should be possible out here although Glass Door salary averages for the region are about what I'm making currently, so…

I will say that my route hasn't necessarily been easy either - I am the fastest coder most people I have worked with has worked with, and I have worked with few who match or beat my capability for strong scalable abstractions prior to my current job (and those handful are working/have worked for the big tech giants, i.e. Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc.). I also have had to work 60-80 hour weeks for 2 of my 3 years in the area.

I have also seen many people not able to attain such compensation boosts as well - the market is fierce for developers here, where if you don't measure up to a certain level, it can be difficult. The number of extremely smart people I have encountered in the tech industry here dwarfs anywhere else I have been (although percentage-wise not as high as where I went to grad school, UIUC).

However, those who spend a couple of years here (or even one if you choose right) can take those benefits with them when they relocate away from the Bay Area in compensation and knowledge. I once worked with a junior developer who spent a little under a year in the Bay Area - he used the opportunity to level up his skills, and when he moved back to NYC after the company fired him, he got into a unicorn and boosted his compensation dramatically (went from $130k base to over 100% increase in total comp - a little less than half in equity) since he was able to take the skills he learned working in code bases of various qualities at the company (very strong to very weak) and apply the knowledge to companies that have no concept of such knowledge or thought processes.

Just food for thought - obviously many factors come into play in choosing what to do, foremost being personal situation.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it is how the world works. If there was really a gender pay gap for women who are doing the exact same work as men with the exact same experience as men, then it would be trivial for employers to reduce their costs by only hiring women. Yet, nobody ever does this.

Your argument hinges on the assumption that (a) employers can easily determine the relative "value" of an employee and (b) that employers then make rational decisions based on that data. I don't think either is likely.

Really? Do you think people are wildly overpaid by their employers?

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#430

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

"If the employee is only motivated by money"

One thing employers need to realize is that this is 95% of jobs. I'm not a developer solely for money. But I am a developer at your company mainly because of money. I would have to imagine that the vast majority of people are in the jobs they're in because of the money.

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