Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less • Hacker News Board

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#331

Post by archeantus » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:59 PM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #80

I think it's important to understand that there's a significant amount of selection bias possible here. In general, folks who switch jobs every two years are the folks who are not getting offered big raises by their current companies. The ones who are getting offered big raises may still choose to leave due to other reasons, but they often will choose to stay instead. And they won't be making a big fuss about it onli…

This jives with another phenomenon I have noticed over the years: the smartest or best devs in the company aren't necessarily making the most money.

Imagine you have a very talented engineer that joins Company A out of college. They pick up new skills quickly and do an excellent job with everything they get thrown their way. The reality is that the company isn't likely to give them a 50% bonus overnight just because they deserve it.

Whereas you can get another person that comes in from another company (and many more before that) and due to the nature of jumping around has the title and the base salary going for them. They very well aren't as good as this other person, but just because they have what they have, they keep getting it.

To be really successful as an engineer, you need to know your stuff, and also know what you are worth. I've seen so many talented engineers stick with companies that are paying them way under market value just because they don't feel like applying anywhere else and they don't know how much more they could be making elsewhere.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#332

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:59 PM UTC

scaryclam wrote: post #112

elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are un…

>I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job.

Well, glad that people know that, so that they can wish the company good luck in getting second rate talent.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#333

Post by gorkonsine » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:00 PM UTC

justadeveloper2 wrote: post #231

jacquesm wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. As your potential employee I'd be more than happy to shake your hand and leave. Very rarely does a company deserve employee loyalty, and you as a linemanager should at least try to earn your employee's loyalty by paying them what they are worth, rather than what you can get away with. Remember, y…

That effectively never happens, or hasn't happened for me. My relationships with managers have always been cordial but we both know the truth. As a developer, it is very hard to ever become anything but a developer. Companies say they have career paths for developers to follow that are non-management tracks, but they effectively don't. You...just...move...on. Any salary increases I have gotten were at the forefront o…

The recruiter gives a damn about you because the higher compensation he negotiates for you, the more he gets paid (usually). It's in the recruiter's interest to get you the best deal possible, if he's acting as your agent. (It's the opposite if the recruiter works for the employer.) Of course, the recruiter has to walk a fine line because he doesn't want to be too aggressive and lose the deal, but they generally will work for you to a point. However, the flip side to this is that, working through a recruiter, you might not get paid as much because, to the employer, the total compensation is higher since they have to pay the recruiter's fee which is very large. It's kinda like selling something through consignment: they want the best price possible, since they get a bigger cut, but because they get a cut, you might be getting less in the end. But recruiters can get you access to jobs you might not easily have access to otherwise (because the company didn't post it yet, won't post it, didn't post it where you'll see it, etc.), so there's that factor too.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#334

Post by DrJaws » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:00 PM UTC

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #322

elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

1. money is what people work for. Unless you are doing something truly great for the humanity there is not much more than money or great work conditions google style to motivate people.

2. Of course, because he wants to be paid like the market is paying people in his position, not to be the only idiot with a worthless salary.

Because, you know, they are asking you to offer them the same the competence is able to give.

What you want is an underpaid worker who never ask for a raise and have his mouth shut up for everything, hell you would take a slave if you could

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#335

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:00 PM UTC

_wwz4 wrote: post #277

djslakor wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. "Pull this on you"? You sound like a real joy to work for. This is expressly why I choose gigs where I'm working directly for an owner if at all possible. If you've created value, owners know how important you are and will take your request seriously as long as it's reasonable. In my career, I ha…

Letting everyone know they'll immediately be shown the door if they dare request an increase would create a terrible culture The person to whom you're responding explicitly drew a distinction between discussing a raise with your boss vs going to your boss with another offer that you have secured. I can see the importance of that distinction. To put the relationship in a different context: Imagine the difference betwe…

>The person to whom you're responding explicitly drew a distinction between discussing a raise with your boss vs going to your boss with another offer that you have secured.

Because it's only OK to ask for a raise when the boss has the upper hand?

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#336

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:00 PM UTC

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #322

elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

To me if I can get a better offer (ie over 10% salary increase) that's just a signal that the current employer is trying to take advantage of me. I'm with you in that I'd never go back and negotiate, I'd just leave. Especially early in your career, there is 0 reason to stick around with someone that won't pay you what you're worth. Underpaying is going to directly correlate with retention problems, and limited career growth so it's best to get out early and often.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#337

Post by draw_down » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:00 PM UTC

djloche wrote: post #60

dsacco wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind sharing what region you're in? You may have found it was easy to significantly increase your compensation because you were significantly underpaid , instead of just because you were frequently changing jobs.

I think in the past 5 years there's been a ton of realization from non SF/NYC/VC-tech companies in the fact that they are competing from the same pool of talent and thus have to offer competitive salaries on a national basis, not just competitive for their area/city. There is still a ton of progress to be made in this regard, but it is changing. for example, a hypothetical newly graduated programmer with some skills…

Hmm, a lot of young people have the mentality that they'll learn more and go farther in their careers if they go to SF/SV to start, even if their adjusted salary is lower. I can't say whether they're right for sure, but it sounds right to me. I think my career has "suffered" for never having lived there. (I'm still doing just fine.)

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#338

Post by joshklein » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:01 PM UTC

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #322

elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

I think it's important to take both of the posts above this one seriously and not dismiss them as "not in my experience."

If you want leverage in any negotiating situation, you need to be able to walk away from the negotiation if the final terms are undesirable. The party with the best "next-best option" is usually the one most willing to stand their ground on terms, or walk.

That means you need to be prepared to lose your job when you discuss changing its terms, which implies BOTH that you should have other offers AND that you should know your boss might fire you on the spot (or worse, talk you into rejecting the other offers and also quietly stop considering you for advancement in your current role).

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#339

Post by cableshaft » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:01 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #104

sidlls wrote: post #34

There is a plateau as one reaches senior positions. As I went from "no" experience to my current position my job switches (every ~2 years) always were for 10%-25% (in one case, 100%, but that was Midwest to Bay Area so other factors are at play). I never got more than 5% merit increases otherwise. Most of my friends who have been at the same place for >10 years in engineering (not software) are just now reaching pari…

Job 2: 47% raise from base (10 months in Job 1) Job 3: 30% raise from base (9 months in Job 2 - relocated to Bay Area) Job 4: 32% raise from base (3 months in Job 3) Job 5: 10% raise from base (10 months in Job 4) Job 6: 0% raise from base, 25% raise from base in RSUs/bonuses (22 months in Job 5) This is spanning 4 1/2 years, and even turning down up to as high as $400k in total comp between job 4 and 5, which would…

I really wish it was as easy to get this outside of the Bay Area. I don't really want to move to the Bay Area (nor does my girlfriend) but I've been stuck making just over half of your current total comp out near Chicago after almost 10 years of experience in various tech stacks.

I know in theory it should be possible out here although Glass Door salary averages for the region are about what I'm making currently, so I don't know.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#340

Post by PeterisP » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:02 PM UTC

bitexploder wrote: post #192

boomboomsubban wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are unhappy, without the threats. This doesn't agree with the research here, and your first statement doesn't agree with your second. If you value your team, they shouldn't…

The research I am aware of says if someone comes into your office with a competing offer they are likely to be gone in 6 months. https://hbr.org/2016/07/setting-the-record-straight-using-an... Outside offers to get a raise are a risky business at best. If someone is unhappy enough to do this it isn't just compensation most of the time.

I mean, there's a strong confounding factor - if you're paying market rate and treating your employees well, it would be very rare that someone comes into your office with a competing offer; and if you're not, then people are likely to leave you even if they don't ask for that counteroffer.

It all depends on how you are managing the compensation growth appropriate for people who are growing in their careers - if you're doing it properly and proactively, then people won't be repeatedly coming to your office with solid evidence that the actual market rate is much higher than whatever you're paying; and if you're giving appropriate raises only when pushed to, then doing that seems to be the only way how your existing employees can continue to get paid market rate.