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In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

nytimes.com

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Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#151

Post by csydas »

svckr wrote: post #129
csydas wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the data doesn't back this, but as a US citizen I find that most of the time when people refer to credit cards they're meaning their Bank card, which often acts as whatever you define it as at the terminal or it has a default status for quick pay options. There are many people that are happy to just pull out the credit card to buy beyond their means but a lot of the time people are using a card backed directly…

Here in Germany we have a clear distinction between credit- and debit cards. And I guess the culture leans more toward the "saving not loaning" model nickrio describes. So for me it is a conscious decision wether I pay with my bank account or credit. Unlike China however, adoption of digital, low-barrier payments is extremely low here. I mean, hell, we're mostly buying paper bus tickets, while local public transport…

Absolutely understood there is a major cultural difference - in this case, I was more hoping to shed light that with regards to the US, most people aren't aware of the difference most of the time since the difference tends to be more relevant to the vendor rather than the customer. There is a subset of people who use credit cards extensively, but my experience is that most are unaware that there is even a difference most of the time.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#152

Post by coliveira »

thablackbull wrote: post #21

I think this is a good illustration of the different approach in how China and America approach the consumer economics space. In America, there is a very heavy reliance on "trickle down". We create a "best-in-class", "top-of-the-line" product that only the elite and wealthy can buy into. These people then set the tone of how it will develop in the future. The first mover also tries to do everything in their power to…

> we have democracy in politics

The last events in the US election system have cast a long shadow of doubt on this statement.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#153

Post by seanmcdirmid »

intended wrote: post #150
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people pay their balance off every month in the USA. Credit card doesn't mean borrowing. The big problem with credit cards in China is fraud: banks like ICBC will put the burden of proof on the card holder when a fraud transaction occurs, rather than the merchant as in the west. I really hate ICBC. Anyways, debit cards work just like QR pay does, just like UnionPay already does. The problem QR codes are…

It doesn't matter how American's treat credit cards. Traditionally China is known as a nation where people save, and debt was not seen favorably at all . This is a cultural thing, which has likely been wearing out since the 1990s.

This is completely unrelated to credit cards, but if you told me that 10 years ago, I would have agreed. Today is much different, I have plenty of friends who are $500k in debt on housing investments.

Of course, China's rapid rise in personal as well as private and public sector debt is evidence of a changing society.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#154

Post by coliveira »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #131
nickrio wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Chinese & living China, I shopping almost only with credit cards and cash for privacy consideration. However, I don't think credit cards in China are as popular as it is in the USA. I could guess most Chinese people don't have any credit card. Chinese traditional culture encourages saving, not loaning. And taking small loans is exactly how credit cards works. So maybe that's why people here don't like credit ca…

I think most people pay their balance off every month in the USA. Credit card doesn't mean borrowing. The big problem with credit cards in China is fraud: banks like ICBC will put the burden of proof on the card holder when a fraud transaction occurs, rather than the merchant as in the west. I really hate ICBC. Anyways, debit cards work just like QR pay does, just like UnionPay already does. The problem QR codes are…

> I think most people pay their balance off every month in the USA

You would be surprised to learn that this is far from the truth.

www.gallup.com/poll/22879/Credit-Card-Owners-Average-Balance-More-Than-3000.aspx

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#155

Post by lb1lf »

Symbiote wrote: post #134
svckr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany we have a clear distinction between credit- and debit cards. And I guess the culture leans more toward the "saving not loaning" model nickrio describes. So for me it is a conscious decision wether I pay with my bank account or credit. Unlike China however, adoption of digital, low-barrier payments is extremely low here. I mean, hell, we're mostly buying paper bus tickets, while local public transport…

The Nordic countries also have that distinction, indeed credit cards are often charged 1-3% in fees, while debit cards are usually free. That hasn't prevented the demise of cash, and MobilePay, Swish etc are popular for personal and commercial transactions. The RFID card works on all public transport all across Denmark. Sweden has regional systems. I don't know about elsewhere. The leader for this is London, where an…

To illustrate how widespread the use of debit cards is - the Norwegian National Bank rolled out a couple of new bank notes in late May.

Only last week did I actually see one of the new 100kr ($12) bills.

Debet card terminals are everywhere, some churches have even put them next to the collection plate - and it is not uncommon to see street vendors using wireless terminals.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#156

Post by dis-sys »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #136
HeavenFox wrote: post #24

Born in China and moved to U.S. since college. In my observation, there are several reason for the boom in mobile payment in China that makes it hard to replicate. - Low transaction fee & minimal barrier. For merchants taking WeChat pay, the transaction fee seems to be a flat 0.6%, compared to 2%-3% in the U.S. For the food cart vendors and similar one man shops, they just use the person-to-person payment feature (li…

> For merchants taking WeChat pay, the transaction fee seems to be a flat 0.6%, compared to 2%-3% in the U.S. Where the heck is 3% even allowed in the USA? > However, it's quite difficult to argue that taking out the phone, unlock it, open the app and show the QR code is easier than using a card in the western world. Tapping the card to the NFC terminal is super easy. You don't even need to take your card out of the…

> Tapping the card to the NFC terminal is super easy. You don't even need to take your card out of the wallet if its in front.

The whole point here is how to entirely get rid of the wallet. your ID, your cards, receipts, parking tickets etc should all be digital. in fact, that is exactly what WeChat/Alipay are offering or battling for.

WeChat based ID card with approval from the Public Security Bureau: https://www.huxiu.com/article/169540.html

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#157

Post by raesene6 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #145
sangnoir wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many countries have an even better technology in NFC contact NFC isn't "better technology", just different to QR code. NFC also handles 1 payer at a time whereas QR can handle multiple, in parallel depending on the physical display size.

NFC is better than QR codes in many many many ways. You don't have to line up the codes with the phones, paying is much faster, and the "1 payer at a time" limitation is actually the 99.9% use case for payments.

Until recently I'd have agreed with you about much faster, I always found QR codes a bit clunky and slow.

However I think the image recognition processes must be improving as the last couple of times I've used them (for TOTP setup) recognition was very fast, < 2 seconds of the camera app. coming on as I was moving the phone into position.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#158

Post by zanny »

RealityNow wrote: post #73
thablackbull wrote: post #21

I think this is a good illustration of the different approach in how China and America approach the consumer economics space. In America, there is a very heavy reliance on "trickle down". We create a "best-in-class", "top-of-the-line" product that only the elite and wealthy can buy into. These people then set the tone of how it will develop in the future. The first mover also tries to do everything in their power to…

I live in NYC, and most stores seem to have $5-10 credit card minimums. America needs to admit that it's no longer the bastion of innovation that it once was (I say this as an American. If anyone doesn't believe me, just take a trip to East Asia). Americans are complacent and fine with not having the cutting edge (not to mention our failing infrastructure). I wish there was a way to change this attitude, but it feels…

The country can still produce innovative things even if the people do not want to adopt them.

Its an attack from both sides, though. Monied established interests systemically manipulate the economy through the state to prevent competition and innovation from gaining traction, while the people are indoctrinated into anti-intellectual and anti-progress ideologies and thus personally resist change.

Both are done for a profit motive, so the real problem is probably the simplest to acknowledge but the hardest to solve - corruption.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#159

Post by nopzor »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #131
nickrio wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Chinese & living China, I shopping almost only with credit cards and cash for privacy consideration. However, I don't think credit cards in China are as popular as it is in the USA. I could guess most Chinese people don't have any credit card. Chinese traditional culture encourages saving, not loaning. And taking small loans is exactly how credit cards works. So maybe that's why people here don't like credit ca…

I think most people pay their balance off every month in the USA. Credit card doesn't mean borrowing. The big problem with credit cards in China is fraud: banks like ICBC will put the burden of proof on the card holder when a fraud transaction occurs, rather than the merchant as in the west. I really hate ICBC. Anyways, debit cards work just like QR pay does, just like UnionPay already does. The problem QR codes are…

The average american has something like 10k in credit card debt.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#160

Post by incompatible »

NamTaf wrote: post #52

Everyone in Australia just uses paypass/paywave contactless payment with their credit cards. I rarely carry any signifiant amount of crash for that reason. It's essentially the same as using your phone except you use your credit card and doesn't require a PIN or anything for signature is no longer allowed . Without having used WeChat's approach with QR code scanning, it doesn't seem that different for the end user in…

I'm still puzzled about why lost cards aren't more of an issue with paywave. Does the bank always refund the losses? If so, what's to stop you spending money for a week and then claiming to the bank that none of the transactions were yours?
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