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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

211–220 of 234 posts

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not assuming anything. just looking at the results. from poverty to riches in 70 years, civil harmony and > 1bn people, clearly the proof the party doesn't know what they're doing. the truth is the PRC is ruled by technocratic geniuses. Even their critics admit as much. most of them are engineers. you SV Cali republic folks ought to be eyeing this as a model of development + progress can be done right at scale. but i…

The results? China has not yet achieved the wealth of liberal democracies in the West and taken decades or centuries longer to get there. Moreover, Taiwan, South Korea and (earlier) Japan have enjoyed similar economic booms whilst (or subsequently) enjoying democracy. Honest question: how do these data points fit into your theory?

Firstly, tho, the economic success of these three countries is on many fronts a direct result of China's rise, while their own policies have kept them back on some fronts, economic integration with China has helped grow them.

Second, these other countries are smaller. It's easier to administer a smaller country. You next next level social organization and governance to guide over 1bn from poor to rich.

And specifically, Japan copied a Western economic model wholesale, and is stagnating. Their loss of national mojo, and lower fertility paint bleak outlook. They still hold their inflexible idealism, which no longer really works for them, while Chinese are far more flexible, pragmatic and entrepreneurial, culturally, by nature. Their dynamism couldn't be farther apart. China wins hands down. Plus, militarily, they depend on US. China has independent command of the world's largest standing army. Japan's more exposed to future risks.

S K is a success. I respect and admire. Also grew prosperity from conflict in short time. But it's a bit player economically. Its economic drivers are more fragile, and overly concentrated, than China, politically it's beholden to US alliance despite new leadership, and it's hobbled, culturally and sociological by its division. China is stronger.

Taiwan is a great country to stay in, it's very comfortable and they have great social infrastructure, far more than compared to China. It's, in some ways, a model for what aspects of China may trend towards. But it's also a lesson. Policy stagnation, fabricated protectionism against the "Chinese bogeyman", a result of willful exploitation of historical ignorance, where the Chinese mainland is blamed incorrectly for the abuses of the initial KMT under CKS after they fled the civil war, wasted decades of opportunity of economic integration with skyrocketing China, while democratic leaders spent this as political capital on bickering, that seriously retarded growth, and gave the people an unnecessary persistent suspicion and chip on their shoulders. Things are changing rapidly now, but they'll never recover those decades of lost growth that resulted from those policy blunders. Also on average the people are far more laid back and lazy than the average mainlander, less ambitious, and more likely to blame their economic stagnation on other nations success rather than taking responsibility and working to create improvements themselves. While the mainland would compete, the Taiwanese will complain. Their generous welfare state has already created a much acknowledged culture of dependence which plunders dynamism and productivity. I wouldn't say China beats Taiwan, but China has made the most of their many opportunities, while Taiwan has missed many.

So these three countries have exhibited the familiar failures of our Western democracies that China has avoided: economic and policy stagnation, welfare dependent suppressed productivity, lack of focus and direction, are just some of the symptoms.

As much as they are each successes, they're not as successful as China has been with a very different model.

It's not just economic policy and single party rule, China cultivates national pride and controls information in a way that has worked for increasing productivity. This concept is anathema to western liberal orthodoxy because it's incorrectly seen as an affront to personal liberty. But personal liberty doesn't exist in a vacuum, it is contingent upon the state (no time nor inclination to refute the anticipated W liberal objections to this now,we simply see things differently as we're on different sides), and when control of information and cultivation of national attitudes leads to greater personal freedoms, the Western intellectual ideal view is left looking sterile, ineffective, dishonest, contrived, impractical, unhelpful and naive.

As to comparing the wealth of nations of China vs WLDs, it's on a different timescale, but, China has grown faster (look at GDP) and more, and discount the future value with a cool headed view of Western and Eastern trajectories, and maybe you'll see they're on the same page. They'll probably exceed US eventually in raw terms. But even if they never did, the Chinese have a wealth of national pride, cultural and value coherence and civil harmony, that constitutes significant civil wealth.

Also, their system is more honest. The Chinese are open about their propoganda, information control, and single party rule. But in the democracy, the state needs to pretend the citizens have more say then they do, while persisting a deep executive branch behind the changing set pieces of democratic theatre, that is overtly lied about and itself rendered ineffective with regard to the greater good of the people, and limited from taking bold across to advanced their long term interests, because of its need for secrecy. It's a self crippled system that leads to it being less accountable to the citizens well-being, and more inclined to fight only for its own equilibrium, than an honest single party state with a more transparent and honest interface to the population, like China. Unfortunately in WLDs this has led to a runaway and in some aspects irresponsible growth of secret security and intelligence apparatus because of its dislocation from the overt rhythms of the front-of-stage state, necessitating the prolonging or fabrication of conditions to pretend to justify its existence and continued expenditure of resources, such as terrorism, civil conflict and division, and constant war. It would seem WLDs are incentivized in ways that doesn't work for their people.

My view is we need to run the experiment on both systems, the Chinese and the American. And that they both have significant opportunities for improvement and can learn from each other. Even if West exceeds China now in fiscal wealth (tho probably not in net present value considering discounted future returns), China exceeds West in civil wealth. Obviously less learning will occur the more each pretends the other is stupid or bad.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two core issues: 1. Liu is not acceptable by a lot of Chinese people due to his aggressive words on colonial and slavers. 2. Liu was sentenced by the gov due to "subversion". So to judge Liu, we have to look from at least two different angles, not just "he was sentenced". Few people thinks 2 is right. I, personally, do not agree on 2 too. And I am now thinking why most people outside China only know about 2…

Freedom of speech isn't such a hard concept to understand. Even if you disagree with someone, you don't put them in prison.

This has been repeatedly explained: he was not jailed for what he said. His very offensive comments should not get him jailed but with those words in mind, do you think he deserve the nobel peace prize?

If you are interested in how he was jailed, search google, there are tons of articles there.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech isn't such a hard concept to understand. Even if you disagree with someone, you don't put them in prison.

This has been repeatedly explained: he was not jailed for what he said. His very offensive comments should not get him jailed but with those words in mind, do you think he deserve the nobel peace prize? If you are interested in how he was jailed, search google, there are tons of articles there.

Hello, I did google it and all I got was he was jailed for 11 years after being convicted of a mysterious charge called "Inciting subversion of state power (煽动颠覆国家政权罪)".

It's not a charge that means a lot to those educated in the west, who would probably view it as a thought crime charge.

Can you explain its use and value better?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#214
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment contributed nothing of substance: "China's political environment is indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts" You're the one asking others to give this empty argument special status because it was posted by someone who claims to be Chinese.

How is that insubstantial? Many do not realize that the west is also a purveyor of lots of propaganda and perhaps they should challenge what they hear from the western media about controversial China topics. That is a very valid point.

It would be substantial (that is, having substance) if the grandfather post perhaps included an example of how the western media screws up its China coverage. I have no doubt there are a lot to choose from.

"Oh the coverage is all wrong" is a pretty empty statement by itself.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#215
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment contributed nothing of substance: "China's political environment is indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts" You're the one asking others to give this empty argument special status because it was posted by someone who claims to be Chinese.

How is that insubstantial? Many do not realize that the west is also a purveyor of lots of propaganda and perhaps they should challenge what they hear from the western media about controversial China topics. That is a very valid point.

The President of the United States goes around saying CNN is "fake news", and you're trying to tell me that nobody challenges the Western news media.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not even close to the core issue. The core issue is that the Chinese government locked someone up for stating an opinion. An opinion not much different in substance than then ones you are stating in this thread. Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone? I would not, and I think that is also true for other people.

Would you consider it just for Snowden to be exiled out of the country? Would you consider it just for Assange to be under house arrest in an Embassy? Would you consider it just for Liu Xiaobo to be under house arrest at his own home? Well, IMHO, all 3 incidents are unjust. However, they all happened. Interestingly, Liu Xiaobo earned a Nobel price, but Snowden didn't. Not sure what would happen if the Chinese governm…

The difference is this: Assange and Snowden exposed state secrets. If Liu had done that, he would have been executed a long time ago.

I don't agree with Snowden's treatment either, but it's important not to confuse freedom of speech with dissemination of confidential information.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The results? China has not yet achieved the wealth of liberal democracies in the West and taken decades or centuries longer to get there. Moreover, Taiwan, South Korea and (earlier) Japan have enjoyed similar economic booms whilst (or subsequently) enjoying democracy. Honest question: how do these data points fit into your theory?

Firstly, tho, the economic success of these three countries is on many fronts a direct result of China's rise, while their own policies have kept them back on some fronts, economic integration with China has helped grow them. Second, these other countries are smaller. It's easier to administer a smaller country. You next next level social organization and governance to guide over 1bn from poor to rich. And specifical…

Thanks for the honest and detailed response. It definitely makes it easier to engage with an opposing view :-)

Firstly regarding the size of China. I do take the point that this makes administration easier. A counterpoint is that it also makes internal markets smaller. China's protectionist approach to the internet for instance likely wouldn't work in Taiwan. I'm unclear of the effect of protectionism in general here. It certainly seems to have worked well for China so far but what will happen if or when these markets are really opened up to foreign competition?

The effect of China's rise on the Asian tigers is almost certainly true. Although you could make the same argument for China benefiting from economic integration with the West. I don't think it diminishes either achievement.

I think I certainly disagree with the notion that the Chinese system is more honest. Chinese media very much gives me the opposite impression. The Great Firewall (protectionist reasons aside) doesn't speak to a "transparent and honest interface to the population" nor the state controlled media. That said, I can align with some of the things you say about democracy in the West. We would certainly do well not to delude ourselves into thinking that the West is free and China is not - though I have no doubts about which society I would choose to live in.

Lastly and most importantly for your argument, I really think its too early to say that China has avoided the stagnation that has afflicted the Asian tigers or WLDs. China's GDP per capita is only around a quarter of Japan's. I think if China were at half or three quarters of that figure and still achieving such impressive growth, I would be more convinced. Until then, we need to compare it to much more distant points in those countries' histories, when they were still posting spectacular growth figures (and in the case of Japan, also predicted to surpass the USA). The experiment needs more time to run in my opinion.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#218
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check the rest of the thread. A number of people have indicated that there isn't much doubt about the interpretation of Liu's comments. You aren't contributing anything to the discussion by continuing to ask a question that's already been answered by a number of native Chinese speakers.

> that's already been answered by a number of native Chinese speakers. I don't think it's been answered to a reasonable level of certainty. The closest to a good answer was one guy who said he'd seen an interview in which the guy clarified that yes he did mean that. But nobody has been able to find that interview, so to my mind it's still an open question. I'm being very careful to not accept statements of opinion as…

>The closest to a good answer was one guy who said he'd seen an interview in which the guy clarified that yes he did mean that.

No, the closest was this: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=14775990

You can find further confirmation of his views very easily by googling the English language media. Doing this could have saved a lot of pointless back and forth:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-...

> In a 1988 interview he stated that "to choose westernisation is to choose to be human".

> In a well-known statement of 1988, Liu said:

> It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough.

> Affirming this sentiment in Open magazine in 2006, he added that progress in China depends on westernisation and the more westernisation, the more progress.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#219
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's already been answered by a number of native Chinese speakers. I don't think it's been answered to a reasonable level of certainty. The closest to a good answer was one guy who said he'd seen an interview in which the guy clarified that yes he did mean that. But nobody has been able to find that interview, so to my mind it's still an open question. I'm being very careful to not accept statements of opinion as…

>The closest to a good answer was one guy who said he'd seen an interview in which the guy clarified that yes he did mean that. No, the closest was this: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=14775990 You can find further confirmation of his views very easily by googling the English language media. Doing this could have saved a lot of pointless back and forth: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nob…

> No, the closest was this: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=14775990

Well, now we have this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14780074

> In a 1988 interview he stated that "to choose westernisation is to choose to be human".

> Affirming this sentiment in Open magazine in 2006, he added that progress in China depends on westernisation and the more westernisation, the more progress.

Westernisation doesn't imply colonisation in the traditional sense. I've removed the quote we are discussing for clarity of my reply I hope you understand.

My takeaway from everything I've read in the past few hours is that he was a bit of a cantankerous guy who said some dumb shit that was widely misinterpreted and used to ruin him. He then refused to take it back either because he was unable to or too stubborn to do so.

I'm glad I pushed as hard as I did for clarification of the colonisation thing. In the end there were a few good interpretations (some conflicting!) and we are richer for having read them rather than taking the first presented as gospel.

The funny thing is I don't really give a shit about this dude, and actually don't think that he should have been given a nobel prize (nor Obama lol...) I think Nobel prizes for peace should go to those who actually promote or create peace... in whatever political framework that comes. Democracy isn't a panacea!

But I feel like a lot of the criticism of this guy has been super heavy handed and like many young western men I bristle at the idea of being told what is right/acceptable without good explanation. I hope you understand my perspective and why I kept questioning when I I did.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech isn't such a hard concept to understand. Even if you disagree with someone, you don't put them in prison.

This has been repeatedly explained: he was not jailed for what he said. His very offensive comments should not get him jailed but with those words in mind, do you think he deserve the nobel peace prize? If you are interested in how he was jailed, search google, there are tons of articles there.

Why are you avoiding explaining what he was jailed for?
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