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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#131

Post by fit2rule »

michaelmrose wrote: post #70
dis-sys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

Cultural genocide is an abomination of a term. It misappropriates a word that conjures up unspeakable horror of mass extermination in order to make suppression of cultural activities / works as bad as mass murder. Its about as bad as statutory rape.

Especially egregious considering that all culture is a lie and it genocides itself by default anyway.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#132

Post by jackvalentine »

dis-sys wrote: post #117
jackvalentine wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi there. I see you've posted a lot in this thread. Lots of very short replies like this one repeating the same basic thing over and over. I do think there is merit in condemning even entertaining the idea we're discussing but your many posts give a very desperate air to your position. Perhaps you could allow others to have side conversations in this thread without popping in constantly.

I posted my comments above because you are blindly defending Liu's repressive comments without providing any 3rd party proof that can be publicly verified. For your concerns regarding my post above, maybe you can start to back up your claims by providing some proof? For example, when you painted Liu's "China should be colonized by the west for 300 years" comments as some so called "misunderstanding", can you be more…

> I posted my comments above because you are blindly defending Liu's repressive comments without providing any 3rd party proof that can be publicly verified.

I'm not defending them. I'm questioning the interpretation of the quote posted which doesn't imply should. There is a difference and I can be swayed either way.

> when you painted Liu's "China should be colonized by the west for 300 years" comments as some so called "misunderstanding"

It was a joke. Can you imagine the absurdity if it was a 30 year misunderstanding?

Your hostility in this thread isn't helping your case at all, which in spite of you attacking me I still believe can probably be made very well!

I believe my questions have been quite reasonable, and I am the kind of person who can be 'won' over with good argument.

What really turns me off is the kind of absolutist hostility that you're displaying.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#133

Post by seanmcdirmid »

4684499 wrote: post #71
jackvalentine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

I believe he did believe China should be colonized. Even he didn't, his audience are genuinely considering and discussing that option. We have a word called "带路党", which literally means road-leading party, to describe people who think China being colonized is a viable idea and do whatever they feel it's helpful to achieve that goal. "Road-leading" means giving directions to intruders (or saviours in their view), in m…

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiaobo

> Liu admitted in 2006 that the response was extemporaneous, although he did not intend to take it back, because it represented "an extreme expression of his longheld belief."[32] The quote was nonetheless used against him. He has commented, "Even today [in 2006], radical patriotic 'angry youth' still frequently use these words to paint me with 'treason'."[32]

Take that as you will. I've heard many Chinese call him racist and treacherous because of these words, that he deserved to die in prison. That is ridiculous, the position was definitely cringe worthy to many people, it isn't one I would agree with, but it was just one position made with lots of resignation.

There is a reason why we just shrug out arms at this, not because we agree with the opinion, but because intellectuals are bound to hold a few opinions that are worse (as judged by whoever) than others. You can crucify almost anyone if you cherry pick.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#134

Post by remline »

dis-sys wrote: post #94
InclinedPlane wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's equating slave labor in China with slavery, which is ... not? idiotic, I imagine. At the outbreak of the US Civil War there were about 4 million slaves living in America. Today there are, according to international estimates, about 3.4 million slaves living and working in China[1]. To claim that it is a non-existent problem or that it isn't severe or that it doesn't merit outrage or to imagine that it is somehow…

you do realize that your suggested site clearly states that the modern slavery situation in China is almost the same as Japan/Italy and better than South Korea? How about you go back to your suggest site and read it carefully? https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/#

I've seen an excellent documentary on South Korea's rural slavery problem.. Can you point me to a Chinese one?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#135

Post by comradeHulaHula »

pmontra wrote: post #127
hunglee2 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weakness is democracy. The Norwegian governing party - whoever it is - now knows that China's default position to perceived outside interference is disproportionate economic punishment, leading to pressure on the living standards of the voters they depend on. Autocratic states have discovered a critical weakness in the representative democracy and there's little we can currently do about it

What if Norway was another autocratic state? Economic punishment could have made them bent anyway. Maybe your point is that autocracies bend less than democracies and you could be right: dictators usually don't care about economic sanctions because what they care about is to stay in charge. A poor or wealthy country doesn't matter much. Actually sanctions help them to build a narrative of world against the country an…

Norwegian here!

I'd like to take the opportunity to say that the feeling at the time was that we got left out in the storm by ourselves by other western countries once the Chinese sanctions came on. In the direct aftermath everyone else just kinda looked the other way, and in the long run there is no way a tiny country like us can withstand that pressure over time.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#136

Post by [deleted] »

ideal0227 wrote: post #121
pavlov wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're clearly trying to seed doubt about why Liu was sentenced to 11 years in prison. He was condemned for "subversion", a vaguely defined crime that doesn't exist in democracies, but has been a popular legal tool in dictatorships.

eh... Liu was not sentenced due to this And, yes, what you just described is also well known. No one in this thread said Liu should be sentenced. And no one in this thread said they agree with what Chinese gov did. What we suggest is that some of Liu's opinions are not acceptable by Chinese people. And he is not well respected as people might think. Some facts are provided in this thread.

[deleted]

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#137

Post by factsaresacred »

codefined wrote: post #113
factsaresacred wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. As Joan Robinson said, "the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." Being paid for work you do not have to do is not slavery. You see we built this thing called civilization whereby instead of starving when crops fail, dying at age 30 with dysentery and livi…

As a point, what are your thoughts of a Meritocracy as a paradigm to follow? Nationalise everything, pay everyone an equal amount, to begin with, but based on their "merits" boost their pay. Seems to have all the advantages of capitalism, without the perceived negatives of communism equally a dictatorship or "fat cats", which could be managed by the government.

It's easier to model countries with sane wealth distribution - Sweden, Germany etc. Allow everyone to get rich as they wish, but tax them.

In return you get to live in a society with high trust, little crime and good social services.

This requires trust and ethics and the will to enforce it politically (and maybe a small homogeneous population).

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#138

Post by seanmcdirmid »

gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

If you asked me this in 1989, we were all sure china will get democracy in 20 or 30 years, it was just a matter of time. The 30th anniversary of Tiananmen is in a couple of years, and things haven't gotten much better.

I was told in 2006 by a prominent Chinese researcher when visiting that there were just a bunch of old fogeys in government and that's why some internet sites were blocked. They would die off/retire soon and the internet would be completely open. Of course, that isn't what happened: after the 2008 Olympics things got much worse and today we fondly look back on 2006 as s time when we could actually use Facebook in china without fiddling through a VPN.

We were told in 2010 that Beijing's air pollution problem would definitely be solved by 2020.

When I first lived in china 2002, I found longer term expats to be so salty and cynical, wow they are so close minded! Before I left just last year I of course had become that expat.

In another 30 or 40 year what china will be honestly can't be predicted.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#139

Post by [deleted] »

ideal0227 wrote: post #66
colordrops wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can read Chinese as well and I don't see anything opinionated in that quote. There is nothing that says anything positive or negative about Hong Kong. It just says that he suspects that China would have to be colonized for 300 years to reach the same state as Hong Kong, due to its large size. He does not say whether it would be a good or bad thing. I don't even notice an undertone.

> I can read Chinese as well I am a native Chinese, which also implies I understand more of the language context. Also it implies I probably can share more of the sentiment as other Chinese people do. So, yes, there is a difference between how people view the exact same content. And I was trying to clarify that. > China would have to be colonized for 300 years to reach the same state as Hong Kong Why China needs to r…

[deleted]

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#140

Post by dis-sys »

ruleabidinguser wrote: post #115
dis-sys wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said "certain views should never ever be publicly stated", and suddenly I need to defend such position? If you live in a society that allows you to publicly state anything without consequences, I'd say that is horrible. If you live in the US, try talk about some racial stuff and bring in the same colonization elements in, see how that is going to end. Time to grow up talk like an adult.

I think the consequences should be decided by the people, rather than an what must be a very insecure central power

That is the exact consequence Liu got - he is never respected by the Chinese people in general. Why Chinese people should respect someone who openly suggested that they should be colonized by the west for 300 years?

For his sentence, no one in this thread ever supported that, for me, it is as bad as giving this man the nobel peace prize.

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