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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#101

Post by factsaresacred »

sametmax wrote: post #96
factsaresacred wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. As Joan Robinson said, "the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." Being paid for work you do not have to do is not slavery. You see we built this thing called civilization whereby instead of starving when crops fail, dying at age 30 with dysentery and livi…

You don't have a generalized cancer, you just have a small tumor. All is good.

You're very confused. Look at this chart: http://images.rcp.realclearpolitics.com/379824_5_.png

Poverty is the cancer. Capitalism (more specifically, wealth-creating economic growth) is the cure.

Don't bemoan the treatment because it's not perfect.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#102

Post by jackvalentine »

dis-sys wrote: post #97
jackvalentine wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your reply, I don't see it getting lots of down votes - it seems reasonable and has contributed to this discussion in a way lots of comments here haven't! > Even he didn't, his audience are genuinely considering and discussing that option. Imagine if this was a thirty year misunderstanding! In that case though, it'd be 100% his fault for allowing it to continue. I suppose we can only really go on by taking…

you can believe what you choose to believe. His comments were widely reported and he never ever even tried to dispute about the general interruption.

Hi there.

I see you've posted a lot in this thread. Lots of very short replies like this one repeating the same basic thing over and over.

I do think there is merit in condemning even entertaining the idea we're discussing but your many posts give a very desperate air to your position.

Perhaps you could allow others to have side conversations in this thread without popping in constantly.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#103

Post by barking »

throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

Where was the device you wrote this polemic on, made?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#104

Post by mercer »

colordrops wrote: post #51
23lk4jj4j2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would write off someone posting about any country if their entire statement could be boiled down to "X is reporting it wrong" without any evidence or examples... It just so happens that this kind of statement is common in the Chinese people that I speak with. You can make a very good case that Western media is terrible in its China reporting, but a blunt statement like that isn't going to be received well in a comm…

Most posts on HN are statements or opinion not backed up by facts. Occasionally an academic type will provide footnotes to their post but it's not the norm. Typically if someone's post is not received well, people respond by asking for references or a challenge to back up their statement. You take a comment that is not really qualitatively different from any other post on HN and give it special status because it's po…

I think the difference is that on many issues, people on HN agree on the basic assumptions and skip the 'sources plz' part. In part because many of us are from the same country or similar cultures.

That in itself is not necessarily a good thing; more than once I've seen it lead to fruitless discussion because it turns out those involved actually did not agree on those assumptions.

But on the other hand it's sometimes necessary. We can't have a discussion, practically speaking, where we define every term we use journal-article-style, or provide references for every single assumption.

My point is that it strikes me as perfectly reasonable that when 'we' are confronted with a perspective that is very different from our own, some more effort should be put into providing arguments (and/or definitions).

Not to mention that on the whole I'd say HN already demands elaboration even from those who have a relatively-similar perspective or background, and I think more of that wouldn't hurt.

I do understand how it can seem unfair, but I don't think it's unreasonable.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#105

Post by sametmax »

factsaresacred wrote: post #101
sametmax wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have a generalized cancer, you just have a small tumor. All is good.

You're very confused. Look at this chart: http://images.rcp.realclearpolitics.com/379824_5_.png Poverty is the cancer. Capitalism (more specifically, wealth-creating economic growth) is the cure. Don't bemoan the treatment because it's not perfect.

It's about slavery here, not capitalism. And since infinite growth cannot happen in a finite system, you need to learn some math anyway.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#106

Post by dis-sys »

redial wrote: post #95
dis-sys wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what? saying "certain views should never ever be publicly stated" is outrageous? what a joke.

You can't defend your position. That's what I thought. A joke indeed.

I said "certain views should never ever be publicly stated", and suddenly I need to defend such position?

If you live in a society that allows you to publicly state anything without consequences, I'd say that is horrible.

If you live in the US, try talk about some racial stuff and bring in the same colonization elements in, see how that is going to end.

Time to grow up talk like an adult.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#107

Post by tanilama »

foldr wrote: post #85
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two-party system absolutely is a problem, but it's still better than a one-party system.

It's obviously better if you already believe in democracy for ideological reasons. The question is, if you're a Chinese person who doesn't, how well is the USA advertising democracy right now?

With the current political scene, I cannot say this advertisement has any convincing effect, except the negative ones.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#108

Post by hunglee2 »

maaaats wrote: post #74

As an aside, even though the Norwegian government has nothing to do with the prize, China quickly ended lots of relations with Norway, losing Norwegian companies billions. Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu, to not sour what they have spent years trying to fix. Weak.

The weakness is democracy. The Norwegian governing party - whoever it is - now knows that China's default position to perceived outside interference is disproportionate economic punishment, leading to pressure on the living standards of the voters they depend on. Autocratic states have discovered a critical weakness in the representative democracy and there's little we can currently do about it

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#109

Post by vacri »

factsaresacred wrote: post #90
throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

> Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. As Joan Robinson said, "the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." Being paid for work you do not have to do is not slavery. You see we built this thing called civilization whereby instead of starving when crops fail, dying at age 30 with dysentery and livi…

There are more political ideologies out there than just capitalism and communism. It seems to be a very American thing to argue as if there are only ever two possible alternatives.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#110

Post by wangii »

jackvalentine wrote: post #37
dis-sys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

he was. and in a later interview he clarified he was not joking, nor metaphorically speaking. he said he literally wanted China to be colonised for 300 years.

the best explanation I could think of, is that he was young and tried to make an extraordinary statement to express his view. we all did this.

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