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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#81

Post by dis-sys »

redial wrote: post #64
dis-sys wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you came to this thread largely because Liu is not a random dude on street, he had the nobel peace prize. if you want to argue "I don't care", you need to back yourself up better. the core issue here is simple: how come such a man who repeatedly made such extremist styles comments in public got awarded the nobel peace prize.

> the core issue here is simple: how come such a man who repeatedly made such extremist styles comments in public got awarded the nobel peace prize. That is your issue, not mine. > you came to this thread largely because Liu is not a random dude on street, he had the nobel peace prize. I am here because of the outrageous comment you made about ‘certain views that should never ever be publicly stated’. If you can’t de…

what? saying "certain views should never ever be publicly stated" is outrageous?

what a joke.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#82

Post by foldr »

mattmanser wrote: post #31
theseadroid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one suggestion from a Chinese perspective: Can you guys fix your democracy first? If you can't set a good example on how good democracy can be, then there's no incentives for any other countries to follow. You realize that US influence can never achieve anything without the citizens of China agree with it right? Like now majority of Chinese think your political system is a joke. And you know what? The majority…

Fix what? Your government is the one telling you it's broken. Your idea of US democracy has been spoon fed to you by your government. You're throwing stones from a greenhouse. While US democracy isnt a particularly good form as it puts too much power in the executive branch, it's overly partisan and two-party, there's nothing fundamentally broken about it. There's disadvantages to proportional representation, which w…

I think you'll find that it's not only Chinese people who find it a little difficult to take the US democratic process all that seriously these days. It doesn't take reams of government propaganda to make Donald Trump look like a buffoon, or the people who voted for him look deeply misguided.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#83

Post by blazespin »

throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

Capitalism is changing China and the world for the better. Wealth is leading to more educated Chinese people who through enlightenment will support better government. If Russia could create the same culture of wealth generation rather than relying on military and natural resources, they’d be improving as well.

Is it the best system? Hardly, but I don’t think withdrawing from globalism is going to help matters. The more we find ways to work together the better.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#84

Post by ideal0227 »

pavlov wrote: post #62
ideal0227 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you trying to say? Is this a question related to my last view or trying to question me?! I cannot figure your point really.

I'm honestly curious to know if you feel that his treatment by the Chinese authorities was just (i.e. in proportion to the perceived crime).

There are a lot of problems with Chinese authorities. There are a lot of things I cannot agree on with them, and I am one of the Chinese people that are trying hard to fix them by doing real work.

Moreover, China != Chinese government. I, personally, hate the opinion that Chinese people who has a "traditional" view is inferior. Yes, they might be "washed" by todays "Chinese system" or education, and you disagree with them. But, it is not their fault.

And most of Liu's view is going towards the direction I really hate. Another example is his calling Chinese people "slaves transformed by the education system".

Again, I am not saying the authorities did the right or best thing. But just Liu is not the person that I would respect.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#85

Post by foldr »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #47
gcb0 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the two party is a problem, despite you not seeing it. and the cult of personality instead of ideological elections is mostly what the Chinese media mocks the west for.

The two-party system absolutely is a problem, but it's still better than a one-party system.

It's obviously better if you already believe in democracy for ideological reasons. The question is, if you're a Chinese person who doesn't, how well is the USA advertising democracy right now?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#86

Post by pavlov »

dis-sys wrote: post #78
jaggederest wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not even close to the core issue. The core issue is that the Chinese government locked someone up for stating an opinion. An opinion not much different in substance than then ones you are stating in this thread. Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone? I would not, and I think that is also true for other people.

he is not jailed for stating that view. the reason for this lock up can be easily searched online.

Why don't you provide a credible source? "Just google for it" is generally what people say to support arguments based on conspiracy theories.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#87

Post by jackvalentine »

4684499 wrote: post #71
jackvalentine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

I believe he did believe China should be colonized. Even he didn't, his audience are genuinely considering and discussing that option. We have a word called "带路党", which literally means road-leading party, to describe people who think China being colonized is a viable idea and do whatever they feel it's helpful to achieve that goal. "Road-leading" means giving directions to intruders (or saviours in their view), in m…

Thanks for your reply, I don't see it getting lots of down votes - it seems reasonable and has contributed to this discussion in a way lots of comments here haven't!

> Even he didn't, his audience are genuinely considering and discussing that option.

Imagine if this was a thirty year misunderstanding! In that case though, it'd be 100% his fault for allowing it to continue.

I suppose we can only really go on by taking the view that the man is dead, and said a lot of things that you might and might not agree with.

Take the good, learn from the bad, remember the writer of both as a flawed human like we all are and move on to the future right?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#88

Post by InclinedPlane »

peteretep wrote: post #73
throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

Equation of work conditions in China with slavery is flatly idiotic.

He's equating slave labor in China with slavery, which is ... not? idiotic, I imagine. At the outbreak of the US Civil War there were about 4 million slaves living in America. Today there are, according to international estimates, about 3.4 million slaves living and working in China[1].

To claim that it is a non-existent problem or that it isn't severe or that it doesn't merit outrage or to imagine that it is somehow on a different level to the chattel slavery of 19th century America is to turn a blind eye to the truth or to try to finely grade suffering in a way that is dehumanizing.

[1] https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/country/china/

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#89

Post by rimliu »

pavanred wrote: post #38
gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

We can't just simply discount the effect of the Nobel prize and world media coverage of Liu Xiaobo. I am reading the book Perfect Hostage by Justin Wintle, it's about the life of Aung San Suu Kyi. And, yes there were a lot of Burmese people and their leader who fought fearlessly for democracy, but I think in addition to that there is a real sizable effect of Suu Kyi winning the Nobel peace prize and world media cover…

Just yesterday I heard someone talking about Liu Xiaobo on BBC. Sorry, I did not get the name or anything else, but I assume that was woman from China. She said pretty much the same: before the Nobel prize he was just one of the many, not particularly interesting. After the prize he was singled out and his wife was put on the house arrest.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#90

Post by factsaresacred »

throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

> Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable.

As Joan Robinson said, "the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all."

Being paid for work you do not have to do is not slavery. You see we built this thing called civilization whereby instead of starving when crops fail, dying at age 30 with dysentery and living in fear of being bludgeoned to death by a rival clan, we can exchange our labour for security, health and resources.

It's not perfect but if Capitalism ain't pleasing you then ask the person working that outsourced job what their grandparents thought of Communism, an ideology that crushed the very soul of China and brought misery, mass death and madness.

Or just ask them what work they'd be doing if Capitalism wasn't keeping them enslaved in jobs.

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