I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#71

Post by 4684499 » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:45 AM UTC

jackvalentine wrote: post #37

dis-sys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

I believe he did believe China should be colonized. Even he didn't, his audience are genuinely considering and discussing that option.

We have a word called "带路党", which literally means road-leading party, to describe people who think China being colonized is a viable idea and do whatever they feel it's helpful to achieve that goal. "Road-leading" means giving directions to intruders (or saviours in their view), in many cases, the US army.

Yeah, amusing, I know.

I don't have the exact definition of the word, here's an old meme people used during NSA's PRISM went viral, hope you get the idea. http://photocdn.sohu.com/20130613/Img378667270.jpg

The text on the right means "it's necessary to speak English well."

This comment is not going to be popular here though, predictable downvotes incoming, but I'm fine with it.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#72

Post by sametmax » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:45 AM UTC

throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

Exactly. Too many people in our countries are very pushy about their value system but see no problem communicating about it through orwelian services using hardawre built by children.

I mean, I'm veggie but I wouldn't dare considering eat lovers bad persons given what else I consume.

That doesn't mean we should feel guilty. It's a hard problem. But that's certainly means we should not feel entitled. And boy do we love to be.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#73

Post by peteretep » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:45 AM UTC

throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

Equation of work conditions in China with slavery is flatly idiotic.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#74

Post by maaaats » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:46 AM UTC

As an aside, even though the Norwegian government has nothing to do with the prize, China quickly ended lots of relations with Norway, losing Norwegian companies billions.

Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu, to not sour what they have spent years trying to fix. Weak.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#75

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:46 AM UTC

dis-sys wrote: post #13

larrysalibra wrote: post #2

If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-x...

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

[deleted]

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#76

Post by sametmax » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:49 AM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #70

dis-sys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

Cultural genocide is an abomination of a term. It misappropriates a word that conjures up unspeakable horror of mass extermination in order to make suppression of cultural activities / works as bad as mass murder. Its about as bad as statutory rape.

It's just a colorful metaphore. Chill out.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#77

Post by maaaats » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:49 AM UTC

dis-sys wrote: post #55

pavlov wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

how about just focus on the core issue here? the core issue here is how come someone with such an extremist style view got awarded a nobel prize. or you may want to explain to me how this whole "China needs to be colonized by the west for 300 years" crap is not extremist style.

Holy cow, how is him getting a prize the core issue, compared to him and his wife being imprisoned for years for stating political views?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#78

Post by dis-sys » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:52 AM UTC

jaggederest wrote: post #65

dis-sys wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about just focus on the core issue here? the core issue here is how come someone with such an extremist style view got awarded a nobel prize. or you may want to explain to me how this whole "China needs to be colonized by the west for 300 years" crap is not extremist style.

That is not even close to the core issue. The core issue is that the Chinese government locked someone up for stating an opinion. An opinion not much different in substance than then ones you are stating in this thread. Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone? I would not, and I think that is also true for other people.

he is not jailed for stating that view. the reason for this lock up can be easily searched online.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#79

Post by pavlov » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:54 AM UTC

dis-sys wrote: post #55

pavlov wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

how about just focus on the core issue here? the core issue here is how come someone with such an extremist style view got awarded a nobel prize. or you may want to explain to me how this whole "China needs to be colonized by the west for 300 years" crap is not extremist style.

Did you actually read the "I Have No Enemies" speech (the linked article)? It is as far from extremism as you can get.

In the speech, Liu spends considerable time praising the Communist Party's progress on human rights:

'The weakening of the enemy mentality has paved the way for the regime to gradually accept the universality of human rights. In [1997 and] 1998 the Chinese government made a commitment to sign two major United Nations international human rights covenants, signaling China's acceptance of universal human rights standards. In 2004, the National People's Congress (NPC) amended the Constitution, writing into the Constitution for the first time that "the state respects and guarantees human rights," signaling that human rights have already become one of the fundamental principles of China's rule of law. At the same time, the current regime puts forth the ideas of “putting people first" and "Creating a harmonious society," signaling progress in the CPC's concept of rule.'

After that, he even praises the progress he saw in jail conditions during the decades he's been in and out of the prison system, and offers thanks to a corrections officer who treated him well!

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#80

Post by js8 » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 8:54 AM UTC

throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

I am not sure what your point is. Are you telling me, if I have no interest in Chinese industry, that empathizing (which I do, as a human being) with Liu Xiaobo is a hypocrisy?

I think you're doing an aggregation error of sorts. The fact that different people in the West have different opinions about China (and some of them are perhaps even hypocritical) doesn't make every westerner's opinion a hypocritical one.