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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#51

Post by colordrops »

23lk4jj4j2 wrote: post #39
colordrops wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lived in china for 9 years, and married a Chinese woman, perhaps you could recognize that you might live in a very specific bubble in a culture very different from China, and that the perspective is so different that reaching out and trying to understand this person's world view might be more productive than tritely dismissing the comment on technicalities. I hate China's government and the way they op…

I would write off someone posting about any country if their entire statement could be boiled down to "X is reporting it wrong" without any evidence or examples... It just so happens that this kind of statement is common in the Chinese people that I speak with. You can make a very good case that Western media is terrible in its China reporting, but a blunt statement like that isn't going to be received well in a comm…

Most posts on HN are statements or opinion not backed up by facts. Occasionally an academic type will provide footnotes to their post but it's not the norm. Typically if someone's post is not received well, people respond by asking for references or a challenge to back up their statement.

You take a comment that is not really qualitatively different from any other post on HN and give it special status because it's posted by a Chinese national.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#52

Post by jackvalentine »

ideal0227 wrote: post #45
jackvalentine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

That appears to be just the same quote in Chinese. I'm not sure if it contains more nuance to bring clarity to the situation - perhaps you can assist there?

What would also help is more context for the quote. Is it a part of a bigger piece of writing?

I'm not asking you to do all the research for me, feel free not to reply - my interest is only really in passing. Though if you do reply feel free to use as much original Chinese text as you like to lend clarity. [1]真是我会度看可是我写中文写得不好。

[1] For those of you playing at home I can read, but my written Chinese is a bloody disaster.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#53

Post by metaphorical »

gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

I found this to be quite condescending -- "lower levels of Maslow hierarchy".

Have you considered that perhaps most Chinese people are "made unready" for democracy simply because of the extreme suppressions by an authoritarian regime?

Or have you considered that perhaps food, shelter, and openness are not mutually exclusive -- that one must have one in order to have another?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#54

Post by ideal0227 »

pavlov wrote: post #49
ideal0227 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

What are you trying to say? Is this a question related to my last view or trying to question me?! I cannot figure your point really.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#55

Post by dis-sys »

pavlov wrote: post #49
ideal0227 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

how about just focus on the core issue here? the core issue here is how come someone with such an extremist style view got awarded a nobel prize.

or you may want to explain to me how this whole "China needs to be colonized by the west for 300 years" crap is not extremist style.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#56

Post by pavlov »

theseadroid wrote: post #17
TokenDiversity wrote: post #3

I'm surprised China gets away with so much! They recently banned kids from being named Mohammad. And had Imams dance. I wish our war-mongering republicans would switch their attention to countries that really violate human rights. EDIT: Of course they do much worse, I was pointing to the fact that not a peep was heard on Fox or CNN.

Here's one suggestion from a Chinese perspective: Can you guys fix your democracy first? If you can't set a good example on how good democracy can be, then there's no incentives for any other countries to follow. You realize that US influence can never achieve anything without the citizens of China agree with it right? Like now majority of Chinese think your political system is a joke. And you know what? The majority…

And you know what? The majority of Chinese like those policies that's violating certain human rights.

How do you know this? It's impossible to measure the support for those policies when discussion and criticism of them is not permitted.

There is a way to measure whether policies are actually supported by the people. It's called multi-party elections.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#57

Post by dis-sys »

redial wrote: post #46
ideal0227 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you? Are you sure he was arrest because of saying that? Do you have any facts to support your view? > Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. Do you think Liu deserves Nobel Peace Prize after saying that publicly? Remember that the…

> Do you think Liu deserves Nobel Peace Prize after saying that publicly? I don't care one way or the other, it's the Nobel committee's decision who they award the prize to. It makes no difference to me. It doesn't make what he, or any other Nobel Laureate say any more true or worthy of consideration. > Remember that the argument was "There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated". There was no arg…

you came to this thread largely because Liu is not a random dude on street, he had the nobel peace prize. if you want to argue "I don't care", you need to back yourself up better.

the core issue here is simple: how come such a man who repeatedly made such extremist styles comments in public got awarded the nobel peace prize.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#58

Post by ideal0227 »

redial wrote: post #46
ideal0227 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you? Are you sure he was arrest because of saying that? Do you have any facts to support your view? > Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. Do you think Liu deserves Nobel Peace Prize after saying that publicly? Remember that the…

> Do you think Liu deserves Nobel Peace Prize after saying that publicly? I don't care one way or the other, it's the Nobel committee's decision who they award the prize to. It makes no difference to me. It doesn't make what he, or any other Nobel Laureate say any more true or worthy of consideration. > Remember that the argument was "There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated". There was no arg…

> I don't care one way or the other, it's the Nobel committee's decision who they award the prize to. It makes no difference to me. It doesn't make what he, or any other Nobel Laureate say any more true or worthy of consideration.

Yea. That is what I want to learn. You do not care about the Prize.

> If you want to argue in favor of why some views should never be publicly stated and who is gonna decide what is/is not allowed, go ahead.

It seems that is you want to know about it. Probably I misunderstood you. I have no interest :P. So we can stop here.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#59

Post by colordrops »

ideal0227 wrote: post #45
jackvalentine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

I can read Chinese as well and I don't see anything opinionated in that quote. There is nothing that says anything positive or negative about Hong Kong. It just says that he suspects that China would have to be colonized for 300 years to reach the same state as Hong Kong, due to its large size.

He does not say whether it would be a good or bad thing. I don't even notice an undertone.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#60

Post by pavlov »

colordrops wrote: post #51
23lk4jj4j2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would write off someone posting about any country if their entire statement could be boiled down to "X is reporting it wrong" without any evidence or examples... It just so happens that this kind of statement is common in the Chinese people that I speak with. You can make a very good case that Western media is terrible in its China reporting, but a blunt statement like that isn't going to be received well in a comm…

Most posts on HN are statements or opinion not backed up by facts. Occasionally an academic type will provide footnotes to their post but it's not the norm. Typically if someone's post is not received well, people respond by asking for references or a challenge to back up their statement. You take a comment that is not really qualitatively different from any other post on HN and give it special status because it's po…

The original comment contributed nothing of substance: "China's political environment is indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts"

You're the one asking others to give this empty argument special status because it was posted by someone who claims to be Chinese.

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