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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#21

Post by gentro »

mc32 wrote: post #18
gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

>You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? Not really. Imagine if the Nobel institute only granted the prize to Europeans. Imagine the furore that would cause. Now, sure, the winners have often been controversial. Here, I can't disagree. I mean, what's not to like about someone who wants to change the…

Sure, the man himself seems beyond reproach, and I admire his courage. But in another sense that's just what I mean, that we can sit here, read this news, and nod approvingly at this man's actions.

But beyond our own consumption of this narrative, his efforts are pretty much irrelevant to any eventual democratization in China.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#22

Post by taway_1212 »

jknoepfler wrote: post #20
gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

Under what conditions, exactly, do you think democracy originally came to be? This is a really bizarre, historically nonsensical comment that is unnecessarily dismissive of people who have sacrificed lives or livelihoods to pave the way for fundamental human rights in their country.

Democracy used to include only middle and upper class people (i.e. you had to have some wealth to be able to vote) and was only relatively recently extended to everyone.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#23

Post by redial »

dis-sys wrote: post #16
stenl wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fine to disagree with his political views. That's precisely his point: the freedom to disagree is the foundation of a free society. What facts were distorted? That he was jailed, multiple times, for defending freedom of expression? That he died in custody? That his wife Liu Xia was under house arrest for years without charges? Or was it his role during the Tiananmen protests and subsequent massacre? That he nego…

There are certain views that should never ever be publicly stated, e.g. Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-...

> There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated

Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken?

> Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me.

Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#24

Post by mc32 »

gentro wrote: post #21
mc32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? Not really. Imagine if the Nobel institute only granted the prize to Europeans. Imagine the furore that would cause. Now, sure, the winners have often been controversial. Here, I can't disagree. I mean, what's not to like about someone who wants to change the…

Sure, the man himself seems beyond reproach, and I admire his courage. But in another sense that's just what I mean, that we can sit here, read this news, and nod approvingly at this man's actions. But beyond our own consumption of this narrative, his efforts are pretty much irrelevant to any eventual democratization in China.

That sounds defeatist. It all has to start somewhere. Someone has to get the ideas rolling. The road to democracy in the western world was long and tortuous and stretched back a millennium or more, but we got there. His ideas are not in vain.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#25

Post by [deleted] »

tsukaisute wrote: post #19
zuolan wrote: post #8

As a Chinese, I need to clarify some facts. I think that the Communist Party of China made a really big mistake, which caused a serious impact on China's national image. But I also do not agree with Liu Xiaobo's political views. Finally, China's political environment indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts, including the Liu Xiaobo event.

。

[deleted]

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#26

Post by Sorreah »

tsukaisute wrote: post #19
zuolan wrote: post #8

As a Chinese, I need to clarify some facts. I think that the Communist Party of China made a really big mistake, which caused a serious impact on China's national image. But I also do not agree with Liu Xiaobo's political views. Finally, China's political environment indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts, including the Liu Xiaobo event.

。

This user was downvoted for his views which are the rough equivalent of "she was asking for it".

To see this as people simply being closed-minded to different cultures is really myopic.

I personally refuse to hold people to different moral standards because they come from another country.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#27

Post by TokenDiversity »

sk0g wrote: post #10
yurofish wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure banning kids from being named a certain name really compares to the actual human rights violations at place in China...

There was a Kiwi couple who weren't allowed to name their kid Lucifer a few years ago. That name is about as religiously charged too. As a bonus, not being named Mo helps you not get picked for random check-ups.

Its not random- its based on pure statistics. I wished at least "hackers" here would understand.

More than that actually, there are politicians who are notorious for being hand-in-gloves in their home countries. They always get picked for these "random" checks in the US.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#28

Post by matthewmacleod »

tsukaisute wrote: post #19
zuolan wrote: post #8

As a Chinese, I need to clarify some facts. I think that the Communist Party of China made a really big mistake, which caused a serious impact on China's national image. But I also do not agree with Liu Xiaobo's political views. Finally, China's political environment indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts, including the Liu Xiaobo event.

。

I’d argue that they are not being disagreed with because of what is “socially acceptable”, but because their comment added no additional facts or information, and was instead just a couple of opinions without much to inform them.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#29

Post by charsifood »

dis-sys wrote: post #13
larrysalibra wrote: post #2

If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-x...

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

EDIT: @dang, please remove my post.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#30

Post by [deleted] »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #28
tsukaisute wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

。

I’d argue that they are not being disagreed with because of what is “socially acceptable”, but because their comment added no additional facts or information, and was instead just a couple of opinions without much to inform them.

[deleted]
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