Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

facebook.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 306 posts

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#271

Post by smt88 »

tannhauser23 wrote: post #267
smt88 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? Those would be the same in that they don't have coding experience. Those people might be great hires, but they're not going to be great coders after a few short months trying to learn HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and possibly a backend language. I didn't say that they're stupid or anything. I mentioned that even a highly…

What basis do you have for asserting that their contributions are bad? That their open source projects and promotions to team leadership aren't signs of competence? Look, you can go on believing whatever you want to believe about bootcamp grads - no one's forcing you to hire them. But it is interesting to me that my cohort mates keep getting hired by everyone from small startups to Google, and they keep progressing i…

> What basis do you have for asserting that their contributions are bad? That their open source projects and promotions to team leadership aren't signs of competence?

I didn't assert that. I asserted only that "contributions" are not evidence of competence. Competence isn't even always sufficient to make someone a good hire.

> That tells me the bootcamps have done a good job of prepping them to begin their coding careers.

I agree and said this in my original comment. I said that bootcamps are "teaching to the test" and prepping people to get past the hiring process.

> And who cares whether I (or anyone else) could have done it on my own?

The people who pay for a bootcamp and don't get their money's worth. It's not easy to part with $10k+ for most people. The top comment on this post is someone who felt that way.

> Could you have learned to code without taking comp sci classes? Probably, right?

Yes, and I did. I'm self-taught. But it didn't take me 16 weeks. I still look back on my skills a year ago and think, "Wow, I sucked a year ago." And I've been programming for 20 years.

> Bootcamps showed that entry level developer jobs at most web startups don't require four years of studying computer science.

They certainly don't necessarily show that. If you hire someone who needs months of training to be a productive, independent employee, that's not a success. That's evidence of a shortage of entry-level coders. I think that shortage is starting to wane.

> This isn't rocket science.

It's not rocket science, but besides being something that requires understanding the way computers work, it also requires learning and understand a staggering number of technologies. I regularly use CSS, and I can't even keep up with just CSS. There's too much to know.

There are also many layers to being a great programmer that people rarely get early on. Many people don't realize that readability/maintainability are the most important qualities of (most) code. Even if they do, they don't necessarily know how to achieve those things.

You seem to be suggesting that web programming is unique among professions in that experience is mostly unimportant and someone can figure it all out in a few months. Would you argue the same about plumbing, repairing air conditioners, accounting, or sales?

None of these things are rocket science, but they are things you can't just think your way through and understand how to be good at. It takes time and practice, like everything.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#272

Post by morgante »

bovitclan wrote: post #204
morgante wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I agree with pg and don't think your college is the best predictor of anything (after all, I actually decided not to go to an Ivy myself). That being said, I reject the notion that it's trivial to buy your way into an elite university. There's a whole class of second-tier private colleges that exist primarily because it's not that easy for rich kids to buy their way into the truly top schools.

I really hope that you see this, because this seems like a teachable moment. We aren't talking about making a million dollar donation to get your son into school. That happens, sure, but it's an extreme example. Here are things that richer people can do easily & poorer people struggle with. * Not working or working part time for four or more years * Moving across the country * Living in places with high cost of livin…

That's an extremely patronizing way of approaching this debate.

I'm well aware of the different kinds of privilege which money affords students. I grew up lower middle class but went to boarding school and university with some incredibly privileged people.

Money helps, but it's still not the dominant factor. If it were, I never would have gotten the education I received. Insinuating that those who went to elite universities just had enough money to get in and go is insulting to those of us who worked very hard to get there.

I'm not going to engage further with you, since you seem more interested in "teaching" me than engaging in a discussion of equals.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#273

Post by trich7 »

DevBootcamps work over the last 5 years have been super impactful and paved the way for many bootcamps. Like many in the industry, and as a founder of DevMountain bootcamps, we all knew DBC as the golden standard. DBC changed tech education and positively affected many! Much respect and best wishes to everyone involved.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#274

Post by shados »

doktrin wrote: post #262
shados wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can and they do. Which is somewhat problematics. A lot of companies are trying to scale, and with the demand for software developers being so high (plus the push for diversity), bootcamp "grads" are a pretty popular target. But companies rarely make the difference between a CS major (especially those with multiple internships or coops often spawning longer than the bootcamp on their own) and bootcamp graduates.…

> So they both start as SWE or Junior/Associate SWE > That puts a ton of burden on teammates that may not be properly prepared to coach these people You hit the nail on the head. Bootcamp grads will typically require more coaching than 4-year CS grads. Companies that don't realize this are setting themselves and their new hire(s) up for a painful experience. In my opinion, fresh bootcamp grads are ready to be apprent…

> gaps that are best bridged with hands-on guidance from a senior developer

Yup. Also, there are situations where that gap becomes problematic to fill. As a lot of bootcamp people get hired, you start getting in situations where everyone in the team is a bootcamp grad. Then they don't have someone with an actual CS background to compensate.

I only have an IT degree myself (which, while longer to get, for all practical purpose is just a longer bootcamp). That was fine: I learnt a lot on my own, and 15-20 years ago, everyone else on my team had a CS background. I got coached, i learnt, I went from there.

Fastforward today and people without CS backgrounds might not have someone who does anywhere near. You don't know what you don't know, and have no way to be guided in the right direction. That's bad news.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#275

Post by bovitclan »

morgante wrote: post #272
bovitclan wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope that you see this, because this seems like a teachable moment. We aren't talking about making a million dollar donation to get your son into school. That happens, sure, but it's an extreme example. Here are things that richer people can do easily & poorer people struggle with. * Not working or working part time for four or more years * Moving across the country * Living in places with high cost of livin…

That's an extremely patronizing way of approaching this debate. I'm well aware of the different kinds of privilege which money affords students. I grew up lower middle class but went to boarding school and university with some incredibly privileged people. Money helps, but it's still not the dominant factor. If it were, I never would have gotten the education I received. Insinuating that those who went to elite unive…

You're free to ignore me, but I'll engage just once more.

I read your comments and perceived that you were misunderstanding, and that I could present it in a way that would clarify things. I'm sorry that you felt patronized, but there is no shame in ignorance. I think you should be more open to people telling you that they have something to teach you; maybe I was wrong, and maybe this isn't the case for everyone, but when I try to teach someone something it's because I respect them enough to think it's worth the effort.

You see all of our points, but you keep coming back to this idea of buying your way into school, which is not a point anyone is arguing. Why is that?

Happy trails.

Edit: And yes, I do believe that, regardless of how difficult it was to get into school, people work very hard in school. I never said they didn't, though I can see how it would be easy to come away with that impression. What I am saying is that it doesn't show them to be harder working than someone who did not attend school.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#276

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

austenallred wrote: post #170
brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who can afford to have $15,000 taken off the top of their salary between $51,000 and $100,000? I hope this graduate can find remote work and live in a tent in a national park campground nearby a major tech employment city with a killer public transportation system that reaches its public park campgrounds. There are actual bears on Bear Mountain by the way.

How many software engineering jobs in San Francisco pay 50,000? The $50,000 lower limit is there for people looking for work in more rural communities. For example, yesterday we had a student that was formerly a forklift driver making $10/hr get a job offer in the middle of nowhere for $78k (and that was only two days after graduation). He lives in an area where he pays $500/month for rent. If he only went from makin…

Well, I can't speak to SF. I can tell you that in NYC, these salaries are going down down down as the supply of "junior Rails semi-devs" (hilarious btw) climbs ever higher with the rise of the last viable profitable education gambit: the bootcamp. I've actually started to see full time SWE positions on AngelList for $40,000 per year. (I know!!!!!) I realize you guys aren't a bootcamp, and I'm not speaking to anyone in particular here. Although- how are you not a bootcamp? Because by bootcamp, I loosely mean: a non-degree granting thing that gives you some skills you can sell in the decaying labor marketplace, but quickly, before it totally decays and there is nothing left at all. Anyhow, labor is dead. We all know it. Here is a great little piece from The Baffler on this point. https://thebaffler.com/salvos/why-work-livingston

That said, it is tough to do the actual life of a 2017 Bourgeois Professional with the income of a manual laborer (debt slave), even for a few years, because the theater of this requires a lot of energy, perfect physical health, and a great wardrobe to start, not to mention the attitudes and social mores that take a lifetime to learn. No one speaks of this crushing emotional toll that adds up to very real financial expenditures that help one deal with these theatrical maneuvers over time. It comes at great financial and psychological cost. People wonder why there is so much burnout in this field... I'm not claiming you should take this on. Not at all. It's just that it is never talked about. Some of these these "bootcamps" are desperate... some of these are in the top tier in SF and NYC. It seems that these issues should be raised at some point and discussed in a place like this one is all I'm saying.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#277

Post by mcguire »

learc83 wrote: post #200
Larrikin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large student loans affect your credit and there is no threshold for your salary for when you have to start paying back.

>there is no threshold for your salary for when you have to start paying back. There is. You pay back 10% of your disposable income. Disposable income is income above 1.5x the Federal poverty level. If you make less than that, you pay $0.

The federal poverty level for a single individual is a bit less than $14,000.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#278

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

seaknoll wrote: post #143
jnmandal wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The support/general overhead wasn't cheap either. When I was there we had a free therapist, mandatory morning yoga, teambuiliding exercises, and stuff like weekly free food, etc.

> mandatory morning yoga This would enrage me.

they don't call it a bootcamp for nothin'. ;)

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#279

Post by drewmol »

austenallred wrote: post #45
GauntletWizard wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gee, $40k per year? But with huge return on investment in education? Why don't we give people loans, and tie them to their future income? I smell a business opportunity.

Haha. Yeah I'm the founder of https://lambdaschool.com/computer-science - a computer science academy that's free up-front and takes a percentage of salary for two years after you get a job. The side benefit of this model instead of a loan is that if, by chance, you don't get a job in software engineering, you never pay anything . It shifts the risk from the students to the school, which is IMO how it should be. Also…

>It shifts the risk from the students to the school, which is IMO how it should be.

I love this idea, thank you for starting this! I think this something there should be more of. I just looked at your site, and noticed the 3% acceptance rate for the $0 upfront cost tier. Just curious how that's changed over time as your exposure has increased. I assume you are trying to maintain some instructor/student ratio, etc? Are you willing to share what limits you from accepting more students at the $0 upfront tier? If so I'd love hear more, lmk.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#280

Post by drewmol »

learc83 wrote: post #231
austenallred wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe we're acting like taking 10% of disposable income for 20 years is a good deal

It's not 10% of your disposable income for 20 years. It's capped at 10% of your disposable income for 20 years. It's designed as a safety net for people who can't find a decent job after taking out student loans. If you get a high paying job you're not going to qualify for the income based repayment plan because you only qualify for the newer income based repayment plans if it will lower your monthly payments below t…

>It's not 10% of your disposable income for 20 years. It's capped at 10% of your disposable income for 20 years.

Yes, and also there's lots of non-typical deductions that can furthur reduce your effective income for these plans, and ways to reduce the forgiveness period to 10 years. Lots of lawmakers say that program is not sustainable, and Congress may try to change it soon... If your not utilizing it and have student loan debt, I'd recommend looking into it sooner than later, as you may be grandfathered in if/when it's restructured. Most people who are elegible don't take advantage of it yet, and loan servicers do their best to steer students away from signing up for IDR.

Post reply on HN