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Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

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Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#61

As always, any implication that all closed-source software, regardless of company, suffers from similar issues, is conveniently absent. Just as it was during the VW emissions scandal - it's the cheating that was problematic, not that consumers are effectively in the dark about how most of their products operate, and deliberately prevented (successfully or not) from finding out (personally, or done on their behalf by…

Even worse, in some countries disassembling proprietary software to analyse its behaviour can be prohibited (at least they write this in EULA).

And modern OS have no protection against backdoors: desktop OS allow apps to do whatever they want, mobile OS like Android have privileges separation but don't allow user to control Internet traffic: you cannot run iptables or ban an app from accessing the network.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#62

As always, any implication that all closed-source software, regardless of company, suffers from similar issues, is conveniently absent. Just as it was during the VW emissions scandal - it's the cheating that was problematic, not that consumers are effectively in the dark about how most of their products operate, and deliberately prevented (successfully or not) from finding out (personally, or done on their behalf by…

[deleted]

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#63
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know that Google and Apple are working with the American Intelligence and they could be considered AV companies when you look at some of their mobile OSes features...

We know that Google and Apple are working with the American Intelligence Citation needed.

They implemented NSA's PRISM program... that must have taken some work initially, if not continually.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#64

As always, any implication that all closed-source software, regardless of company, suffers from similar issues, is conveniently absent. Just as it was during the VW emissions scandal - it's the cheating that was problematic, not that consumers are effectively in the dark about how most of their products operate, and deliberately prevented (successfully or not) from finding out (personally, or done on their behalf by…

Do you think because the implications of open-source software would threaten the economic model & world that the writer lives in? Or that it's just an oversight and they just want to earn clicks? I think it's the latter, even if it's in effect the former (unintentioally).

I don't think this writer omitted it intentionally. I think it's because journalists that are too at-odds with corporate (or other dominant narrative) just have a harder time in their career. No-one gets censored, except in rare cases - they just don't have their contract extended. See https://cartoonistsrights.org/u-s-cartoonist-fired-after-cri... , but I imagine it's usually handled more subtly.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think because the implications of open-source software would threaten the economic model & world that the writer lives in? Or that it's just an oversight and they just want to earn clicks? I think it's the latter, even if it's in effect the former (unintentioally).

I don't think this writer omitted it intentionally. I think it's because journalists that are too at-odds with corporate (or other dominant narrative) just have a harder time in their career. No-one gets censored, except in rare cases - they just don't have their contract extended. See https://cartoonistsrights.org/u-s-cartoonist-fired-after-cri... , but I imagine it's usually handled more subtly.

"In a Facebook post following his firing, Friday wrote that the incident showed “how fragile our rights to free speech and free press really are in the country.”"

Indeed.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#66
post #45
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't believe this as a child in the '80s, but in the last 10 years at least, Putin's Russia has been freaking horrifying to me. So yeah, they aren't the world's only bad guys, and they're probably not the worst, but it's not for lack of trying. Putin's vision of Russia doesn't even try to avoid looking comically sinister. I honestly don't see how anyone who isn't wrapped up in self-interested religious or ethnic…

> I didn't believe this as a child in the '80s, but in the last 10 years at least, Putin's Russia has been freaking horrifying to me. In what way, and what's "comically sinister"? Russia mostly deals with stuff in their borders. The "worst" they did was intervene in a neighbor-hooding part of Ukraine, with 60% citizenry of Russian ethnicity, who even had a referendum for preferring to unite with Russia, and that only…

Again, I judge people in my own country (and my own country's government) just as harshly when they advocate or implement policies that I consider immoral, unethical, or just plain stupid. I also don't freak out when people from other countries criticize my country for those things. In fact, I welcome their support.

I just don't understand the mentality of getting way more upset about other people's perceived hypocrisy, than getting upset over people doing actual terrible things. Hypocrisy is a bad thing, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to people doing actual bad things. Hypocrisy, even when it's true, is a really pointless thing to get worked up about.

In my experience, the only times people bust out hypocrisy as an argument against someone else's accusations, it's for one of two reasons:

(1) To show that the accuser doesn't really think the thing the accused did is wrong. I imagine there may be a few cases where this might be meaningful (like when political candidates debate each other), but it has no bearing on the accusation itself. If Charles Manson accused John Wayne Gacy of being a serial killer, the obvious hypocrisy wouldn't make me question Gacy's guilt, and it certainly wouldn't lead me to the conclusion that because hypocrisy is involved, it must be OK to be a serial killer.

(2) Other times people bring up hypocrisy because they're just trying to deflect the accusation. This is whataboutism in a nutshell. In this case, the person upset about hypocrisy is actually OK with whatever the accusation is, and they just want to change the subject by putting the person they're accusing of hypocrisy on the defensive. It's a rhetorical trick but all it does is confuse the issue and attempt to normalize indefensible actions.

Again: it's hard for me to even articulate how irrelevant it is that America might be guilty of similar things at various points in its history that I am upset at Putin about. If Putin started calling out human rights abuses in the US that were in fact real, I really really really really really don't care that he might be hypocritical by accusing my country of such things. If his hypothetical accusations were correct, I'd be every bit as concerned about them then if the accusations came from a less hypocritical source.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#67
post #57
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well sure. That's my whole point. If the US engages in what I consider immoral or otherwise indefensible behavior, the fact that I am an American has no bearing on how harshly I judge that behavior. I hold Russians to the same standards as I hold myself, therefore I expect them to denounce the actions of their government when appropriate. I don't give two shits whether or not some other country (including my own) has…

That's the thing though. If indeed "shitty behavior is shitty behavior no matter who's doing it, and [you] have zero tolerance for it" then he is not "one of the most colossal fucking assholes in the entire fucking world right now" but just an average, run of the mill, arsehole. Saying "shitty behavior is shitty, doesn't matter who is doing it" is meaningful if indeed those proclaiming don't in practice restrict thei…

I guess that's the root of our disagreement then. I don't see him as a run-of-the-mill asshole. I see him as one of the most dangerous people in the entire world. I could point to some other national leaders who on the surface seem way worse than Putin, but those people aren't smart enough or powerful enough to have the kind of impact on the world that he does.

I think Putin is way more intelligent, capable, and ambitious than Duterte for example, and Duterte certainly fits into the "psychopathic authoritarian monster" stereotype far more obviously than Putin does. But Putin in the long term can do far more damage to the world at large. Duterte is a cartoon, and as awful as he is, I don't think he has ambitions beyond his own borders. Putin most definitely has such ambitions, and the ability to achieve them. And of course, in a selfish sense I'm extra worried about him because he's clearly hostile to my country, and the values and ideals that I hold, as well as the values and ideals that my country holds (at least on paper, even if it doesn't always do a great job of representing them).

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#68
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know that Google and Apple are working with the American Intelligence Citation needed.

They implemented NSA's PRISM program... that must have taken some work initially, if not continually. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

That document doesn't make an overwhelming case for Google or Apple "working with" intelligence agencies. But I haven't read the original Powerpoint, so maybe I'm simply ignorant of the facts.

As opposed to the likes of AT&T and Verizon. Which we know were actively cooperating with the NSA.

More likely is that perhaps individual Apple or Google employees were suborned, or the NSA took advantage of weaknesses. E.g. IIRC Google wasn't encrypting traffic between its data centers, Apple had a "goto fail" bug, etc. Why bother forcing companies to cooperate if you can instead take what you want without asking?

Let me ask you this: Do you think that Eric Schmidt or Sergey Brin or Larry Page or Steve Jobs or Tim Cook said something like "OK, lets give the NSA what they want."

I don't think so. More likely, if Google and Apple knew at all, they simply acquiesced to what they thought were legal court orders.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is undermined by your links. The first describes a remote network exploit , which is not developed by coöperation or coercion. Exploits take advantage of a software vulnerability to insert additional capabilities (espionage). I think you wanted to find a link describing the process of interdiction , which was implied to exist in the Snowden documents. The second link is just a public denial by Check Point.…

The links aren't meant to prove there is some kind of government-planted backdoor, but rather to show the same kind of evidence Kaspersky is being charged with: rumors and whispers. And it's completely fair to judge based on that because every company is judged based on that.

The link talking about a remote exploit has nothing to do with back doors. Claiming it does belies a lack of expertise (which is fine) or an intent to deceive.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is undermined by your links. The first describes a remote network exploit , which is not developed by coöperation or coercion. Exploits take advantage of a software vulnerability to insert additional capabilities (espionage). I think you wanted to find a link describing the process of interdiction , which was implied to exist in the Snowden documents. The second link is just a public denial by Check Point.…

> A discovered back door would destroy Kaspersky, Huawei, Cisco, Check Point, etc.; nobody would renew their contracts with that massive loss of trust. Given that a backdoor could look like an undiscovered exploit I fail to see how the one would result in the other, besides that where will you turn? To one of the other parties... Consider this the present situation and almost nobody has moved away from their vendors.…

I don't think any credible vulnerability researcher would conclude any of those companies' software vulnerabilities were back doors. If you know of one, please let me know.

All of these companies write software in languages that require the programmer to track memory management and bound their own copies. The probability that software written in languages like that will generate a memory corruption vulnerability is extremely high.

Has Juniper actually been damaged by the backdoored source code scandal (which is the only genuinely back doored American company I can think of)?

This report claims a 5% YoY net revenue increase, along with higher GAAP profit. http://investor.juniper.net/investor-relations/press-release...

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