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Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

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Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#211
post #172

It was late summer night when I noticed that article on HN. I immediately noticed it's organized like a novel - this popular lame style which often annoys me lately: Matthew Prince knew what was coming. The CEO of Cloudflare, an internet security company and content delivery network in San Francisco, was behind his desk when the emails began to trickle in ... Was he really behind his desk? Hesitated a little before p…

Since you asked ... As both a writer and reader, I fucking hate it . I think it's fucking piss-poor writing by journalists who don't know how to be journalists and don't even know how to write an article, all in the name of attracting simple-minded readers with a one of the lamest prose techniques possible. I'm here to read an article about patents. I'm not interested in the opening few paragraphs of a bad novel. If…

The reason is simple - they (people responsible for the form of articles, which may not always include the original journalist) don't care about you. They're not here to deliver you value. They're here to extract value from you.

My rule of thumb is simple: I look at a service and ask myself, is what I see a good, efficient way to deliver the value the service says it delivers? If the answer is no, I know that they don't give a shit about delivering value, they're only there to extract it.

In the concrete example of journalism: inverted pyramid, TL;DR of the facts at the top, no useless prose - those are signs of trying to deliver value. Prose, multi-page articles, ads, auto-playing videos (be it ads or "content") - those are signs they don't give a shit about you.

And yes, some may say that companies seek balance between profitability and value. Sure, maybe companies think they do that. But the choices they make matter. If they're making money literally on wasting my time, the most precious resource any human being has, then I don't want to have anything to do with them.

Which is why I don't read the news. The state of the journalism is so bad here, that casual browsing of comment sections of Reddit and HN is a more efficient way to stay up-to-date on the world events than actually reading the articles.

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright covers implementations, not ideas. I have no moral objection to truly novel inventions in computer science being protected by patents. An innovative search algorithm, a compression scheme, etc. Its shit when MP3s and GIFs were encumbered, but they were genuine inventions whose sharing publicly genuinely advanced the public good. The kind the patent trolls use are not innovative in the same way. We need a st…

Patents cover implementations, not ideas. Ideas are not patentable. Neither are algorithms. The implementation of an idea in a machine is patentable in most places in the world. The implementation of an algorithm on a machine is patentable in the U.S. We need better understanding of existing definitions so that we don't rehash the same arguments over and over again.

Nope. Disagree. Look at claim construction in a patent "a fixing means", for example, isn't an implementation it's an element of an idea. A patent application has to include a concrete implementation but the claims - which define the patent legally - are always broader than the specific implementation and will cover multiple implementations that use the inventive concept.

Thus, a new product that's never been made before can infringe an existing patent. The implementation is new but the _idea_ is not.

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#213

I'm not a fan of the argument that if Blackbird weren't a NPE it'd be okay because Cloudflare could then aim it's 150 strong patent portfolio cannon back at them. It's basically saying incumbents like Cloudflare don't really want to fix the system, they want to keep the untenable 'cold war' status quo which protects them but burdens new entrants.

Everyone is a "troll" when they are suing you. When you are suing other people they are thieves stealing your innovation.

These lawyers are doing great work by creating a market that allows innovators to profit from their work even if they don't have the capital to commercialize their innovations themselves.

The incumbents can cry about this but even if they have never sued anyone for infringement their valuations are still based on their portfolios and they still use the threat to suppress competition and when they are over a barrel for cash they will monetize those patents either themselves or by selling to another "troll."

Individual software engineers who invent new technologies deserve to get compensated the same as anyone else for their inventions.

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#214
post #198

We need to get rid of software patents. Patents were created to encourage innovation. Software patents simply rewarding the first person who patents what is almost always an obvious next step. That's not innovation.

Do you feel that there is a difference in innovation between software and other fields? The obvious next steps you are talking about are usually only obvious in hindsight.

The difference that comes to my mind is costs. I suspect software "inventions" are usually very cheap to make (a person with a laptop is enough), compared to other industries.

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#215
post #51
post #42

> So-called non-practicing entities — or holders of a patent for a process or product that they don’t plan to develop — often use them to sue companies that would sooner settle rather than pay what can add up to $1 million by the time a case reaches a courtroom. Why on earth aren't non-practicing entity patent lawsuits outlawed? Seems like a no-brainer, and I can't imagine these firms being big enough to have any ser…

Because there's a Grey area. As an inventor, you might develop something for the express purpose of licensing it to other companies, or sell it to a company that does that for a business for a nice up front sum. The problem is when patents last too long or thing are patented that are obvious and should have failed that criteria.

IMO the system needs to work on getting a better deal for the public in exchange for granting the monopoly that a patent holder gets.

For example after 5 years the renewal fees could relate to gross revenue from any device including that patent, or actual licensing fees. I like the former as it seems harder to work around [though you'll get components sold as products to companies residing in the same factory, I guess] and means that patents that don't contribute considerably to revenue will be dropped. This means people can still profit from useful inventions.

You could also underpin renewal fees with an exponentially growing base cost.

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you apply for a patent that is later invalidated, then those that licensed the patent should be made repaid. I feel that this effectively says that nobody should be able to license their patent: they would need to hold all of their license fees in reserve against a lawsuit that could happen at any time between the patent grant and the end of the legal system. That or buy insurance which will, no doubt be priced…

So how about once the patent holder is made aware of the prior art, any fees collected after that point are subject to return if the patent is invalidated based in some part on the prior work?

People claim prior art for all manner of things and again, this leaves the sole inventor in an unpleasant bind. A hostile large company could go around scaring sole inventors by saying "oh hey, we found prior art. Incidentally, would you like to license your patent exclusively to us for a pittance?"

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you apply for a patent that is later invalidated, then those that licensed the patent should be made repaid. I feel that this effectively says that nobody should be able to license their patent: they would need to hold all of their license fees in reserve against a lawsuit that could happen at any time between the patent grant and the end of the legal system. That or buy insurance which will, no doubt be priced…

The worst case is that the money has to be repaid - how would insuring against that be prohibitive? If there's a 20% chance of invalidation, inventors take a 20% haircut. But the invalidation chance will not be uniform, and the risk assessment done by insurance companies will bring the right kind of market forces to bear against frivolous patents. And even aside from the economic impact, it's quite simply the right t…

> The worst case is that the money has to be repaid - how would insuring against that be prohibitive?

Because, under the proposal, those license fees can be recovered at any time. Forever. You will never be able to go uninsured for any patent you ever granted. As your life wears on, regardless of whether you need the insurance or not, your net value is wound down.

Again, this means that only large companies will be willing to take the chance, because they can spread that risk across a portfolio and afford to defend it. A sole inventor cannot. They might obtain a patent, but under this scheme, they won't license it -- they'll just sell it. And it's just going to be to a large company, a patent broker or a patent troll.

> If you shake people down with a government enforced monopoly that turns out to never have legitimately existed, keeping that money is immoral.

I agree, and courts may be prepared to grant remedies in some cases.

But my point is that it is also problematic to tilt the field still further against sole inventors. That increases the proportion of giant companies and patent trolls, which makes the net situation worse, not better.

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#218
> It’s for this reason that Prince sees Cloudflare’s primary mission as figuring out how to increase Blackbird’s costs. Explains Prince, “We thought, if it’s asymmetric,” because it’s so much cheaper for Blackbird to sue than for a company to defend itself, “how can we make it more symmetric? And every minute that they spend having to defend themselves somewhere else is a minute they aren’t suing us or someone else.”

They should take it a step further and apply the Thiel strategy of finding people with grievances against the founders of the patent troll and support individual lawsuits against them.

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#219
This reminds me of an altercation in the street that my neighbour reported overhearing some years ago:

Aggressive Woman: You need to watch your step, my husband is a criminal lawyer

Woman she was trying to intimidate: (deadpans) Aren't they all ?

Re: Cloudflare’s fight with a “patent troll” could alter the game

#220

More detail on what we are doing from three blog posts: Standing Up to a Dangerous New Breed of Patent Troll https://blog.cloudflare.com/standing-up-to-a-dangerous-new-b... Project Jengo https://blog.cloudflare.com/project-jengo/ Patent Troll Battle Update: Doubling Down on Project Jengo https://blog.cloudflare.com/patent-troll-battle-update-doubl...

> [...] Blackbird combines both a law firm and intellectual property rights holder into a single entity. In doing so, they remove legal fees from their cost structure and can bring lawsuits of potentially dubious merit without having to bear any meaningful cost.

Don't the lawyers have opportunity costs?

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