Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 70 posts

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#31

Post by zzzcpan »

linkregister wrote: post #25
mwfunk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't believe this as a child in the '80s, but in the last 10 years at least, Putin's Russia has been freaking horrifying to me. So yeah, they aren't the world's only bad guys, and they're probably not the worst, but it's not for lack of trying. Putin's vision of Russia doesn't even try to avoid looking comically sinister. I honestly don't see how anyone who isn't wrapped up in self-interested religious or ethnic…

The problem with that viewpoint is to treat Russia as a monolithic entity. Despite military aggression and political and speech repression by the ruling junta , there is still a vibrant and mostly functional economy. Kaspersky providing services to the FSB (which is kind of like NIST, FTC, FCC, FBI, and DHS all in one) is little different to Cisco or IBM providing consulting services for the respective U.S. agencies.…

Weaponized hacking complicates things. You don't know to which extent Kaspersky cooperates with the FSB or even whether there isn't someone from the FSB working covertly for them, implementing backdoors.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#32

Post by ProAm »

mwfunk wrote: post #24
ProAm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Russians are the bad guys. /s

I didn't believe this as a child in the '80s, but in the last 10 years at least, Putin's Russia has been freaking horrifying to me. So yeah, they aren't the world's only bad guys, and they're probably not the worst, but it's not for lack of trying. Putin's vision of Russia doesn't even try to avoid looking comically sinister. I honestly don't see how anyone who isn't wrapped up in self-interested religious or ethnic…

Good and Evil are 100% relative to your position. No one ever thinks they are they bad guy.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#33

Post by commenter98456 »

He who smelt it dealt it?

Crowdstrike, FireEye ,Cobaltstrike,symantec,etc... are they CIA fronts as well?

As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU? I wish I didn't have to ask that. but the fact is, and I'm sure some will agree - It is the CIA/NSA machine that can make my life here in America hell, not the SVR/GRU.

I can understand the concern when it comes to critical infrastructure and government software. However in the private sector and for individuals - "A tyrant 3000 miles away" is less of a threat than "3000 tyrants a mile a way".

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#34

Post by adventured »

commenter98456 wrote: post #33

He who smelt it dealt it? Crowdstrike, FireEye ,Cobaltstrike,symantec,etc... are they CIA fronts as well? As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU? I wish I didn't have to ask that. but the fact is, and I'm sure some will agree - It is the CIA/NSA machine that can make my life here in America hell, not the SVR/GRU. I can understand the concern when it comes to critical infrastructure and governm…

> As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU?

Because one is tasked - in theory - with protecting you, the other is tasked solely with protecting Russians (at your expense as necessary). It's that simple. And if you're going to claim the NSA never does anything to keep Americans safe, it would degrade your credibility toward zero.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#35

Post by zeep »

adventured wrote: post #34
commenter98456 wrote: post #33

He who smelt it dealt it? Crowdstrike, FireEye ,Cobaltstrike,symantec,etc... are they CIA fronts as well? As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU? I wish I didn't have to ask that. but the fact is, and I'm sure some will agree - It is the CIA/NSA machine that can make my life here in America hell, not the SVR/GRU. I can understand the concern when it comes to critical infrastructure and governm…

> As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU? Because one is tasked - in theory - with protecting you, the other is tasked solely with protecting Russians (at your expense as necessary). It's that simple. And if you're going to claim the NSA never does anything to keep Americans safe, it would degrade your credibility toward zero.

If you subtract the stuff that you don't want them to do from the stuff that you want them to do, are you still in the positive?

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#36

Post by zeep »

marcusjt wrote: post #4

Whatever next? Have American AV companies been "Working with American Intelligence"? That would be just as shocking... ;)

We know that Google and Apple are working with the American Intelligence and they could be considered AV companies when you look at some of their mobile OSes features...

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#37

Post by cronjobber »

commenter98456 wrote: post #33

He who smelt it dealt it? Crowdstrike, FireEye ,Cobaltstrike,symantec,etc... are they CIA fronts as well? As an american, why would I trust the CIA/NSA over the SVR/GRU? I wish I didn't have to ask that. but the fact is, and I'm sure some will agree - It is the CIA/NSA machine that can make my life here in America hell, not the SVR/GRU. I can understand the concern when it comes to critical infrastructure and governm…

True. Sadly.

Alas, while Russian (and Chinese) general disinterest in f'ing with you does help, their equally developed general disinterest in your well-being means they might have incentive to sell or trade with entities more... interested.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#38

Post by linkregister »

freehunter wrote: post #30
linkregister wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that viewpoint is to treat Russia as a monolithic entity. Despite military aggression and political and speech repression by the ruling junta , there is still a vibrant and mostly functional economy. Kaspersky providing services to the FSB (which is kind of like NIST, FTC, FCC, FBI, and DHS all in one) is little different to Cisco or IBM providing consulting services for the respective U.S. agencies.…

I don't think it's entirely unfair. We know that the Russian government sponsors cyber attacks. They're not the only ones, we know the USA and China and North Korea and Israel and probably every other country does too. It all has to be taken into account. If I buy Cisco gear, what's the likelihood that it has an NSA tap in it? [1] If I buy Check Point gear, what's the likelihood that it has a Mossad tap in it? [2] If…

Your point is undermined by your links. The first describes a remote network exploit, which is not developed by coöperation or coercion. Exploits take advantage of a software vulnerability to insert additional capabilities (espionage). I think you wanted to find a link describing the process of interdiction, which was implied to exist in the Snowden documents.

The second link is just a public denial by Check Point. I'm not sure why you're implying these companies coöperate with their governments. A discovered back door would destroy Kaspersky, Huawei, Cisco, Check Point, etc.; nobody would renew their contracts with that massive loss of trust.

I do think you raise an excellent point. The actual reality that these companies aren't providing back doors is not relevant when the perception is that they are. The greatest risk is not coöperation, but of remote exploitation of the software. It turns out that there are a few major countries known for conducting network exploitation campaigns, unrelated to the country of origin of the target software. Just as the Stuxnet guys were almost certainly not German, yet they had a vulnerability in Siemens software, and the NotPetya authors didn't exert physical influence over ME.Doc in Ukraine, attackers have little to do with where the software was built.

As long as a government acts "scary", however, it makes companies feel less secure in the software, which affects sales. I'm not singling out software and hardware procurement officers; the "feels = reals" phenomenon is a human condition.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#39

Post by linkregister »

zzzcpan wrote: post #31
linkregister wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that viewpoint is to treat Russia as a monolithic entity. Despite military aggression and political and speech repression by the ruling junta , there is still a vibrant and mostly functional economy. Kaspersky providing services to the FSB (which is kind of like NIST, FTC, FCC, FBI, and DHS all in one) is little different to Cisco or IBM providing consulting services for the respective U.S. agencies.…

Weaponized hacking complicates things. You don't know to which extent Kaspersky cooperates with the FSB or even whether there isn't someone from the FSB working covertly for them, implementing backdoors.

Maybe there are some Mossad agents, French Intelligence, Chinese, NSA, etc. also working for Kaspersky. It is a multinational team.

Re: Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working with Russian Intelligence

#40

Post by mwfunk »

ProAm wrote: post #32
mwfunk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't believe this as a child in the '80s, but in the last 10 years at least, Putin's Russia has been freaking horrifying to me. So yeah, they aren't the world's only bad guys, and they're probably not the worst, but it's not for lack of trying. Putin's vision of Russia doesn't even try to avoid looking comically sinister. I honestly don't see how anyone who isn't wrapped up in self-interested religious or ethnic…

Good and Evil are 100% relative to your position. No one ever thinks they are they bad guy.

It's not that simple by a long shot. Minus any information or critical thinking, no one ever thinks of themselves as the bad guy. I'm an American and I can tell you no end of past and present instances in our history in which we were the bad guys in a particular situation. I don't defend America if I think the US government is taking a morally, ethically, or intellectually wrong position, or if the US government does something really shitty. I vote against politicians who support such things and am not at all shy about criticizing America when it's appropriate. I hold Russians to the same standard as I hold myself and my fellow Americans, and expect them to be just as critical towards their own government when it's appropriate.

When people deflect criticism of their country by saying some other country is just as bad, they're totally missing the point. Saying that everyone does shitty things still doesn't make it OK for anyone to do shitty things. The German government was literally run by Nazis for over a decade and caused tens of millions of deaths, apparently for no reason other than idealism and narcissism. But that doesn't mean that I treat the German government of today as if they were secret Nazis all along, and that sure as hell doesn't mean it's OK for other countries to do what Germany did during WW2.

If all you've got is whataboutism, you are literally trying to defend indefensible behavior by pointing out instances of other countries engaging in indefensible behavior. This makes zero sense. I don't get it. It doesn't matter how many countries do horrible things, it doesn't make any of those horrible things OK. You are you, you are not your country. Think for yourself. OTOH, if you really think all those indefensible things that Russia (and America, at times) have done are OK, and you just want everyone to shut up about it so everyone can maintain the status quo, I honestly don't know what to say. I have zero common ground with such a person, they may as well come from another universe that I would give anything to not live in.

Post reply on HN