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Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

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Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#81

Post by tbenst »

ErikAugust wrote: post #38

I run ultras and mountain races. I ran one this Friday night into Saturday morning - a 12 hour overnight trail race where I managed 100K (62mi) in 11 hours and 23 minutes. Anyway, let's throw out willpower and even genetics for a second so I can bring up something: In today's age, virtually no one is even remotely close to their physiological limits. Literally, hundreds of people (elite marathoners, a few ultra marat…

I ran at an elite D1 collegiate program. The vast majority of runners will get injured at 100 miles per week, assuming a reasonable pace no slower than 7 min / mile. Slower than that is not useful training for Olympic events. Our top runner was a 13:30 5k and 29:20 10k at 70-80 miles per week.

Ultras are a different beast entirely, as its more of a "survival" test of muscles, ligaments, and bones than that of sustained running performance--even top ultramarathoners will walk during races. Ultras are about physiological limits of our bodies to handle stress; the 2-hour marathon is about the physiological limits of running.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#82

Post by gaius »

oh_sigh wrote: post #61
revelation wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is dangerous nonsense. Is it possible to run ultra marathons on fat? Of course, you have enough fat stored for many many of those. Is it in any way amenable to a good performance? Not at all, and you don't need a biology PhD to realize that. The limiting factor in endurance sports is rate of oxygen uptake, fat metabolism takes more oxygen per energy yielded and is therefore strictly less efficient than deriving…

Half marathons are right at the very limit of depleting your liver glycogen stores(100-200g). Anything beyond that, you better be eating quick carbs during your exercise, or you will start burning fat.

I am not sure that's true, most marathoners (incl. myself) would report "hitting the wall" at around 20 miles.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#84

Post by steaknsteak »

gaius wrote: post #65
logicallee wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Literally, hundreds of people (elite marathoners, a few ultra marathoners, cross country skiiers) out of billions of people are bumping up against physiology The human race didn't fight tooth and nail for 40,000 years to give everyone education, a code of laws and civilization, safe lives that include both work and leisure, so that I could bump into the limits of my physiology. How is that a normative goal? There ar…

fight tooth and nail for 40,000 years to give everyone education On the one hand that's true but on the other hand, the vast majority of people aren't operating at their theoretical mental limit either, either way a vast amount of wasted potential.

I don't think very many people are interested in achieving their theoretical mental limit any more than their physical limit. What would be the purpose of that? Diminishing returns applies to nearly every endeavor. Unless you are so preoccupied with a single goal that practically nothing else matters, you will always sacrifice some potential improvement on any goal to make room for the other important aspects of your life.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#85

Post by ErikAugust »

tbenst wrote: post #81
ErikAugust wrote: post #38

I run ultras and mountain races. I ran one this Friday night into Saturday morning - a 12 hour overnight trail race where I managed 100K (62mi) in 11 hours and 23 minutes. Anyway, let's throw out willpower and even genetics for a second so I can bring up something: In today's age, virtually no one is even remotely close to their physiological limits. Literally, hundreds of people (elite marathoners, a few ultra marat…

I ran at an elite D1 collegiate program. The vast majority of runners will get injured at 100 miles per week, assuming a reasonable pace no slower than 7 min / mile. Slower than that is not useful training for Olympic events. Our top runner was a 13:30 5k and 29:20 10k at 70-80 miles per week. Ultras are a different beast entirely, as its more of a "survival" test of muscles, ligaments, and bones than that of sustain…

"Slower than that is not useful training for Olympic events."

Lydiard-ians would disagree - at least for a base phase.

But I will agree that if you are running even 7min/miles for your easy and recovery runs, many get injured at 100 miles a week. Many do. And that disrupts their development in the worst way possible!

Interesting article on that: http://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked...

But sure, I also agree - ultras versus marathons are different types of limits. Or mountain races versus marathons versus something like an ultra like Badwater.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#86

Post by scintill76 »

> And so I set about fortifying my sense of self-control, based on the following factors: [Standards, Monitoring, and Strength]

> Strength: ... I built my mental strength by running even when I didn’t want to—when I was sore, stressed, or sleepy.

He built his will power by doing things he didn't have the will to do? One of the pillars of his self-control is that he has self-control? Maybe I'm missing something or jumping on the easy mockery, but this seems circular or common-sense.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#87

Post by 09bjb »

scintill76 wrote: post #86

> And so I set about fortifying my sense of self-control, based on the following factors: [Standards, Monitoring, and Strength] > Strength: ... I built my mental strength by running even when I didn’t want to—when I was sore, stressed, or sleepy. He built his will power by doing things he didn't have the will to do? One of the pillars of his self-control is that he has self-control? Maybe I'm missing something or jum…

I don't see a problem with this. Habits are self-reinforcing, good or bad. If you can interrupt a bad habit once, or start a good habit once, you give yourself more momentum for the next go-round. You have X probability of successfully doing it the first time, and you may or may not do what you set out to. But whether you do affects the probability that you'll do it the next time. And I'd be wary of anyone that claims that they never, ever, have any say in the matter when it comes to doing something once, even if it's hard.

I do agree with you in that by this same logic, you have a better chance of arriving at great self-control if you start with decent self-control.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#88

Post by watwut »

Doing sport as a hobby is pleasant. If you want test willpower, try sitting totally bored on playground every day because it is good for kids, try to come home sooner despite peer pressure and career hit because you matter for kids.

Alternatively, try doing boring work you hate for hours because bills needs to be paid. It is less pleasant then doing sport you like.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#89

Post by schrodinger »

Swizec wrote: post #29
HorizonXP wrote: post #15

I'm a bit evangelical about low-carb, high-fat (LCHF) diets nowadays, especially keto. Personally, I'm not at the fitness level where I could conceivably run a marathon. Maybe a 5K or a half. But the article mentions him hitting walls as he hit certain mile markers, and having his wife help him reach the finish. This guy: https://youtu.be/96VZFklUM_Q runs ultra marathons, using fat for fuel. He leaves his fellow comp…

As someone currently training for the SF Marathon, here's my perspective on low carb and glucose packets. Low-ish carb is great. It helps you endure long runs overall and it's a good habit in general. Especially for recovering after the race and getting all those calories back. During the long run itself however, glucose packets are absolutely necessary. You run out of glycogen stores every 45 minutes or so. That's w…

I actually feel my best when I do my long (10-12 mile) runs in a fasted state around 11 am. I'd much rather eat after the run.

Re: Learning to run 100-mile marathons thanks to the science of self-control

#90

Post by watwut »

majelix wrote: post #34
Grustaf wrote: post #17

”Bill Gates spent thousands of hours learning to program” Sure, and so did thousands of others. Bill Gates clearly didn’t become a modern Croesus because he was a better programmer, this is just trying to shoehorn Microsoft into the at once self-evident and ludicrous 10000 hour idea.

> ”Bill Gates spent thousands of hours learning to program” Here's the full quote: "Bill Gates spent thousands of hours learning how to program computers—but he only had that opportunity because he had the good fortune of having parents who supported his education." I think you're in violent agreement that 10,000 hours isn't sufficient.

I thought Gates success is because he was good at business and good at leading company.
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