Indian IT, “You're Fired” • Hacker News Board

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#141

Post by phonon » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #110

Clubber wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty paltry in the US. You can't take social security until 65 (I think it's 67 now). You get unemployment but it's administered at the state level and in most states it caps out at under $800 a month, but it's been a while. A moderate mortgage is twice that. Also, we get our health benefits from companies and not the government, so as soon as you are laid off, all your health benefits are no longer paid by th…

>>You get unemployment but it's administered at the state level and in most states it caps out at under $800 a month, but it's been a while. My state is 50% of your pay upto ~$1,500 a month, this seems to be about the average, i can find no state that under $800, the lowest is Mississippi coming in at $940 http://www.savingtoinvest.com/maximum-weekly-unemployment-be... > A moderate mortgage is twice that. That depend…

https://ows.doleta.gov/unemploy/content/sigpros/2010-2019/Ja...

has the actual maximum weekly benefit numbers...yes, Mississippi is the lowest at a maximum of $235/w. Benefits are usually for up to 26 weeks (some states are less.)

Note though--

1. This is the max state benefit you can receive. Roughly speaking, If you earned less than 104 times that the prior year you will get less.

2. They can deduct/delay benefits if you are receiving severance (depends on the state)

3. If you earn anything (get a part-time job, or some contract work,) while receiving benefits, that will be deducted. (Exactly how depends on the state).

4. You don't get benefits if you resigned or were fired for cause.

5. You have to be actively seeking work (so no vacation to recharge your batteries after being laid off....they can and do check travel records.)

6. Job search costs and paying for the full costs of healthcare is usually in excess of what you will get in State benefits.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#142

Post by enraged_camel » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

jermaustin1 wrote: post #108

enraged_camel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you need to do immediately before informing an employee that you are letting them go is revoke their access to critical systems and/or disable their accounts. That way, you can allow them to go back to their desk and say their goodbyes to their coworkers without risking them doing silly stuff like delete data.

This leads to people who are sick finding out before they are fired, that they are fired. Happened at a client's place a couple years ago, they letting go of all the senior sysadmins, killed their credentials, then fired them. 2 of the admins were out sick, and they lost their email, and their access to the monitoring tools. When the employees came in, they were escorted by "guards" to get their stuff, and not allowe…

Let me clarify: the type of procedure I suggested requires close collaboration between HR, legal, IT and the department the employee is in, and it requires careful execution. That can ensure that employees are not terminated while they are out sick, among other things.

For example:

It's Friday afternoon. HR calls department manager and asks them if Bob is currently at his desk. Department manager confirms.

HR then asks department manager to ask to have a quick chat with Bob, and to notify HR immediately before that meeting starts. Department manager arranges this with Bob, who is wrapping up another meeting.

15 minutes later, department manager sends an email or IM to HR saying he/she and Bob are about to head over to the meeting room, where Bob will be fired.

HR confirms, then contacts the IT department and asks them to immediately revoke Bob's access to all critical systems. (The procedure for this will be established well in advance, and documented. Ideally a script will make this a single-click operation.)

In the meeting, Bob finds out that he is being let go at the end of the day, and told that he can spend the remainder of his time at the office saying goodbyes and maybe even writing a goodbye email to his coworkers if he chooses to do so. He is explicitly instructed to BCC his manager and HR in that email. He is also made aware, both verbally and in writing, that his access to all other systems has been revoked, and even attempting to use those systems will alert HR and result in him immediately being escorted out.

--

Of course you also need strict policies such as "employees cannot use their personal email addresses when signing up for products and services on behalf of the company." That way if you fire someone you don't lose access to critical systems. Have a shared email for each department that is used for that purpose.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#143

Post by jerry40 » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #131

jerry40 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Immediately escorting fired employees out of the building is an extremely aggressive signal, and I don't know if it gets used much outside of USA. I saw that in Moscow in 2008 (one big investment bank fired several guys from our team in 20-30 minutes in front of my eyes). It was very unusual. They did now allow a fired person to touch his computer after firing him.

My buddy was in his cubicle, then the network went down. Everybody was standing in the aisles chatting about it, milling around, and HR showed up. Read a list of names, got them in a group, escorted them out of the building. Then the network came back up. Back to work!

Such a sad story! Somehow it reminded me a mix of 1984 and Brazil.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#144

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 4:46 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #104

iaskwhy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this happening in the UK to around 40 colleagues at 10am one day. I'm assuming it's because it's a sensitive job information-wise so one is not allowed to touch his computer anymore. I've heard non-contractors still get paid the missing weeks as per their contract, they're just not allowed in the building. It's miserable, by the way. The mood continues in a low for months when it happens.

I was working for an famous US company in their Romanian offices. When I resigned nobody escorted me out of the premises. And that's: - in a developing country - in a country not known for its excellent reputation regarding fraud, corruption, theft, etc. - as an employee holding the "keys to the kingdom" (access to multiple production environments, admin level access to source control systems used by 90% of the compa…

That just reflects the suckage of a global IT org with ITIL process and sourced operations.

Firings usually shortcut the twaddle and bunkum associated with that particular bureaucratic form.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#145

Post by skrause » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

skocznymroczny wrote: post #60

mabbo wrote: post #15

I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters"…

I think it's mostly an American thing. In Poland (and probably other European countries), under a normal work contract, you are told in advance about being laid off, at least two weeks I think. It gives you enough time to look for another job, and it gives you time to pass your work to your coworkers. No one really does retaliation here, it's all done in a mostly peaceful atmosphere, the laid off employee is trying t…

While a company has to give you a few weeks notice in Germany (unless you're fired without notice because stole something etc.), they can simply send you home with pay if they don't need you anymore or don't want to let you near sensitive data. I've seen multiple people who were fired and told to clean their desks and go home (but they weren't escorted out). But a least they got some paid time off to search for a new job.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#146

Post by JustSomeNobody » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #72

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last layoff I saw happen (I survived), they emailed the people being layed off and told them to meet in a conference room. So as all of them got up, they noticed the rest of us staying. We all instantly knew. 15 minutes later, they all come walking back to get their personal items with armed security guards patrolling (maybe a dozen). I started looking for my next job that day. I don't want to work for a company that…

Where do you work that has armed security guards? The government?

They hired them just to monitor the situation. The people there could not have been a more docile bunch if you drugged them, which made it all the more painful to watch.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#147

Post by syshum » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

phonon wrote: post #141

syshum wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>You get unemployment but it's administered at the state level and in most states it caps out at under $800 a month, but it's been a while. My state is 50% of your pay upto ~$1,500 a month, this seems to be about the average, i can find no state that under $800, the lowest is Mississippi coming in at $940 http://www.savingtoinvest.com/maximum-weekly-unemployment-be... > A moderate mortgage is twice that. That depend…

https://ows.doleta.gov/unemploy/content/sigpros/2010-2019/Ja... has the actual maximum weekly benefit numbers...yes, Mississippi is the lowest at a maximum of $235/w. Benefits are usually for up to 26 weeks (some states are less.) Note though-- 1. This is the max state benefit you can receive. Roughly speaking, If you earned less than 104 times that the prior year you will get less. 2. They can deduct/delay benefits…

1. Yes and the claim I was refuting was the MAX was less than $800 per month, at $235/wk that means the max is $940 per month, which is more than the claim I was refuting

2. If you earn additional income then yes the government benefits should be reduced, I fail to see why this is a bad thing, Unemployment is not a job, it is allow people to have some income if they find themselves with out a job through no fault of their own. if they are getting income from other sources they should not be collecting unemployment as they are not unemployed

3. See #2

4. There are some exception to this (like changes terms and conditions of employment), but unemployment is for people that find themselves jobless through no fault of their own, if you are at fault for your joblessness you should not collect unemployment as it should be assumed you understood the consequences of your actions which created your joblessness

5. Yes a person on unemployment should have to prove they are seeking employment, I fail to understand why this controversial. No the government should not pay for you to take a vacation or "recharge your batteries"

6. What are "Job Search costs", going to indeed and sending emails cost money now? by health care I assume you mean health insurance, which is really different than health care. And is really well outside the topic of this conversation, unemployment is not designed to cover health insurance costs nor should it.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#148

Post by phonon » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 5:59 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #147

phonon wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://ows.doleta.gov/unemploy/content/sigpros/2010-2019/Ja... has the actual maximum weekly benefit numbers...yes, Mississippi is the lowest at a maximum of $235/w. Benefits are usually for up to 26 weeks (some states are less.) Note though-- 1. This is the max state benefit you can receive. Roughly speaking, If you earned less than 104 times that the prior year you will get less. 2. They can deduct/delay benefits…

1. Yes and the claim I was refuting was the MAX was less than $800 per month, at $235/wk that means the max is $940 per month, which is more than the claim I was refuting 2. If you earn additional income then yes the government benefits should be reduced, I fail to see why this is a bad thing, Unemployment is not a job, it is allow people to have some income if they find themselves with out a job through no fault of…

1. Was not disagreeing. And there are more than 4 weeks in a month. :-)

2. Yes, but arguably severance is something you earned (vested) over many years of service...it's not income for work you are currently performing. Some states are stricter about sources of income while unemployed than others.

3. Which is a disincentive to work part time while unemployed. If there is a dollar for dollar reduction of benefits (most states are not stupid enough to do this) it's better to sit home than try to work part time while looking for full time employment.

4. Life is complicated. What if you have to resign to take care of a dying spouse? These are all issues states grapple with. I'll note in the story we're commenting upon, the workers were basically blackmailed to declare that they were "resigning."

"The HR representative calls an employee from a list and she is heard warning him to “Quit by 10 am, or you’ll be terminated and no benefits or relieving letter will be provided”"

Of course, this was outside the US, but many times there is pressure to say you "resigned" rather than be "fired".

5. OK. Doesn't mean that taking a short time off from looking for work isn't beneficial. We're not talking about going to Hawaii here.

6. Travelling to job interviews/job fairs. Writing and sending out resumes. Paying for educational/training resources. It's meant to tide you over between episodes of unemployment. It's not charity. It's insurance the employer was paying into while you were working there. FUTA and SUTA taxes pay for the program.

And if you employer was paying for some of your health care benefits while you were employed, and now you have to pay that share plus an admin fee under COBRA, while your income has gone to zero--how are health insurance costs then supposed to be covered? (Yes, you can have lots of money saved up...not feasible for everyone.) What exactly do you think UI should be paying for if not health insurance/care costs? Food and shelter only?

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#149

Post by gaius » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #64

mabbo wrote: post #15

I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters"…

Last layoff I saw happen (I survived), they emailed the people being layed off and told them to meet in a conference room. So as all of them got up, they noticed the rest of us staying. We all instantly knew. 15 minutes later, they all come walking back to get their personal items with armed security guards patrolling (maybe a dozen). I started looking for my next job that day. I don't want to work for a company that…

One company I worked for had people come to meeting room 1 or 2. When room 2 was full they locked the door, opened the fire escape and told those people they were laid off and to leave now...

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#150

Post by rabboRubble » Mon, Jul 10, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #15

I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters"…

I've seen this in other countries, where the person asked to leave had authority over outgoing payments, trades, contract signing, critical systems access, etc. that sort of thing.

If you terminate such a person without some preparation, they can go back to their desk and do mischievous things. That's the idea behind this.