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Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

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Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#121

Post by Brockenstein »

Brendinooo wrote: post #70
bogomipz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And perhaps equally infuriating and insulting is this Christian company not taking any responsibility for the theft or funding terrorists. From the BBC articles; >'Hobby Lobby said it "did not fully appreciate the complexities" of the import process when it began' and >'The company imprudently relied on dealers and shippers who, in hindsight, did not understand the correct way to document and ship these items," Hobby…

So how did this go down, in your mind? The President of Hobby Lobby got his eyes on some shiny objects, then was told to make the check out to Al-Qaeda, and decided that it was worth funding terrorism to get the items he'd been lusting after? Also, would you arrest someone who purchased an item at a yard sale that had been stolen at one point? Come to think of it, should I be grilling every yard sale proprietor to ma…

Buying antiquities and the consequences of supporting the black market aren't suddenly new or secret. What is appropriate has certainly been established. Either they chose to ignore laws or they chose to be willfully ignorant. Neither is a very good defense.

This isn't a yard sale. What they're doing is a big boy business and involved big boy money. There's big boy consequences for it.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#122

Post by hsod »

Brendinooo wrote: post #95
alwayseasy wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, antiquities from this part of the world that are sold on the black market have higher stakes. The DOJ makes it clear Hobby Lobby acted very suspiciously/maliciously. If you're at a yard sale where you're asked to meet the seller at the back to see the "real goods" and pay in unusual ways, you're exposing yourself. Let's not forget, the president of Hobby Lobby isn't naive when it comes to the law... he navigated…

The DOJ makes it clear that they broke laws. I'm not disputing that. Clearly they did something wrong, and are paying a pretty penny for it (pocket change for the CEO, but almost twice what they paid overall). And as I said, I'd like to think I'd have acted better. People are making good points in this thread. I'm not blindly trying to defend a company I know very little about; just trying to poke some holes in the g…

When does skepticism become solipsism?

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#123

Post by dragonwriter »

bogomipz wrote: post #120
__david__ wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Hey, let's buy this stuff from Iraq. Iraq, Iraq... where have I heard of that before? Hmm, isn't that where those ISIS fellows are? Well, never mind, they probably have nothing to do with it." To be fair, it looks like all this happened in 2010—ISIS wasn't in the nation's consciousness back then: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=isis I'm not saying it was a good idea.

>To be fair, it looks like all this happened in 2010—ISIS wasn't in the nation's consciousness back then" You realize that ISIS is the rebranded Al Queda in Iraq right? Al Queda in Iraq(AQI) began in 2004. The rebranding came in 2011 when Arab Spring protests in Syria resulted in that country being destabilized and AQI was able to move in to Syria to re-supply. Regardless of the name changes they would have been part…

> You realize that ISIS is the rebranded Al Queda in Iraq right?

And AQI was itself a rebranding of a different org that had no prior connection to al-Qaeda.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#124

Post by TheGirondin »

s73ver wrote: post #81
gorkonsine wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, no. Hobby Lobby's customers are typically conservative suburban Christians. Liberals with any political awareness at all would know very well of their contraception case at the SCOTUS, and go to Michael's instead. There's no shortage of middle-class evangelical Christians in suburban areas who are perfectly happy to patronize Hobby Lobby and support their political efforts.

Maybe those people need to be made aware that Hobby Lobby did this. And that it could have contributed to the rise of ISIS.

No one in the US has contributed more the rise of ISIS than Democrats.

The current situation in northern Iraq is exactly what was predicted would happen if the US withdrew before the Iraqi government was stable enough. In response, Democrats said that the anti-government AQ forces were "freedom fighters" and said that what happened there was "none of our business."

This is the "peace" Democrats wanted.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#125

Post by bogomipz »

dragonwriter wrote: post #123
bogomipz wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To be fair, it looks like all this happened in 2010—ISIS wasn't in the nation's consciousness back then" You realize that ISIS is the rebranded Al Queda in Iraq right? Al Queda in Iraq(AQI) began in 2004. The rebranding came in 2011 when Arab Spring protests in Syria resulted in that country being destabilized and AQI was able to move in to Syria to re-supply. Regardless of the name changes they would have been part…

> You realize that ISIS is the rebranded Al Queda in Iraq right? And AQI was itself a rebranding of a different org that had no prior connection to al-Qaeda.

That's incorrect. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi the father of AQI, Daesh, ISIL, ISIS etc was most certainly in Afghanistan. He was there to fight the Soviets with the mujahideen as well as later on to run a training camp there. It's hard to imagine that without being a member of Al Queda. Anyway:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jun/08/iraq.alqaida1

Also the structure of Al Queda is that of a franchise:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/sunday-review/the-franchi...

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#126

Post by parenthephobia »

__david__ wrote: post #108
mikeash wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your yard sale analogy is a little off, unless the yard sale is in the middle of an active war zone. How do you think this went down? "Hey, let's buy this stuff from Iraq. Iraq, Iraq... where have I heard of that before? Hmm, isn't that where those ISIS fellows are? Well, never mind, they probably have nothing to do with it." There's also the issue of inconsistent punishment. If you or I had done this we'd probably b…

> "Hey, let's buy this stuff from Iraq. Iraq, Iraq... where have I heard of that before? Hmm, isn't that where those ISIS fellows are? Well, never mind, they probably have nothing to do with it." To be fair, it looks like all this happened in 2010—ISIS wasn't in the nation's consciousness back then: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=isis I'm not saying it was a good idea.

The nation isn't being held responsible. :)

It think it is reasonable to expect an organization to take reasonable steps to ensure the legality of its own operations - such as not ignoring the advice of its own legal experts.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#127

Post by illumin8 »

e59d134d wrote: post #103

Amazing, I don't see any outrage from conservatives on funding ISIS by Hobby Lobby. There are some even defending Hobby Lobby because according to them Hobby Lobby saved important artifacts from destruction.

The Republicans have proven repeatedly that they put party over everything else. It doesn't matter. If Ben & Jerry's did this "send them to Gitmo!" If Hobby Lobby does it? They're good Christians; they can do no wrong...

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#128

Post by dragonwriter »

bogomipz wrote: post #125
dragonwriter wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You realize that ISIS is the rebranded Al Queda in Iraq right? And AQI was itself a rebranding of a different org that had no prior connection to al-Qaeda.

That's incorrect. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi the father of AQI, Daesh, ISIL, ISIS etc was most certainly in Afghanistan. He was there to fight the Soviets with the mujahideen as well as later on to run a training camp there. It's hard to imagine that without being a member of Al Queda. Anyway: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jun/08/iraq.alqaida1 Also the structure of Al Queda is that of a franchise: https://www.nyti…

> That's incorrect.

No, its not. The group that became al-Qaeda in Iraq was founded in Jordan in 1999 as “Organization of Monotheism and Jihad” and was not affiliated with al-Qaeda. It affiliated with al-Qaeda simultaneously with it's 2004 rebranding as al-Qaeda in Iraq.

> The structure of Al Queda is that of a franchise

Yes, and just as sometimes a pre-existing unaffiliated business signs up with a commercial franchise, sometimes a pre-existing unaffiliated jihad group would join al-Qaeda.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#129

Post by lostlogin »

rayiner wrote: post #48
pboutros wrote: post #4

Saw on Twitter that someone called them the "Wahhabi Lobby". But actually, it seems ridiculous to me that this only warranted a $3m settlement. They've (almost certainly) been indirectly funding ISIS by robbing a country of its cultural artifacts. Not cool.

> They've (almost certainly) Is that true? More importantly, is there evidence that makes it more likely than not that (1) this is true; and (2) that Hobby Lobby knew about it, or was willfully blind about it? Like, what percentage of unprovenanced antiquities sales are used to support terrorism? It's like saying buying drugs (or diamonds, or products containing certain metals) finances terrorism. Yeah, some does. Bu…

That's a good point. One could make a decent argument that by paying taxes in some places you have funded 'terrorism'. Unfortunately terrorism is a word that is polarising and is generally shouted hysterical such that it's devoid of meaning and you can't really use it helpfully.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#130

Post by lostlogin »

TheGirondin wrote: post #124
s73ver wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe those people need to be made aware that Hobby Lobby did this. And that it could have contributed to the rise of ISIS.

No one in the US has contributed more the rise of ISIS than Democrats. The current situation in northern Iraq is exactly what was predicted would happen if the US withdrew before the Iraqi government was stable enough. In response, Democrats said that the anti-government AQ forces were "freedom fighters" and said that what happened there was "none of our business." This is the "peace" Democrats wanted.

You are taking way too short a view of this. Perhaps invading was the wrong decision. Or was not taking Saddam down earlier in war 1.0 the wrong decision. Or was funding Saddam for years the wrong path? The current situation is a culmination of (at a minimum) decades of failure by many countries.
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