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Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

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Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#81
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True enough, but I always got the impression their customers would skew liberal. But that might be my liberal assumptions about who does craft projects showing through. :)

Oh, no. Hobby Lobby's customers are typically conservative suburban Christians. Liberals with any political awareness at all would know very well of their contraception case at the SCOTUS, and go to Michael's instead. There's no shortage of middle-class evangelical Christians in suburban areas who are perfectly happy to patronize Hobby Lobby and support their political efforts.

Maybe those people need to be made aware that Hobby Lobby did this. And that it could have contributed to the rise of ISIS.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And perhaps equally infuriating and insulting is this Christian company not taking any responsibility for the theft or funding terrorists. From the BBC articles; >'Hobby Lobby said it "did not fully appreciate the complexities" of the import process when it began' and >'The company imprudently relied on dealers and shippers who, in hindsight, did not understand the correct way to document and ship these items," Hobby…

So how did this go down, in your mind? The President of Hobby Lobby got his eyes on some shiny objects, then was told to make the check out to Al-Qaeda, and decided that it was worth funding terrorism to get the items he'd been lusting after? Also, would you arrest someone who purchased an item at a yard sale that had been stolen at one point? Come to think of it, should I be grilling every yard sale proprietor to ma…

>"So how did this go down, in your mind? The President of Hobby Lobby got his eyes on some shiny objects, then was told to make the check out to Al-Qaeda, and decided that it was worth funding terrorism to get the items he'd been lusting after?"

Almost. From the BBC article and mentioned elsewhere:

"But prosecutors said the company was warned by an expert that such items from Iraq were likely to have been looted from archaeological sites and needed to be carefully verified."

and

"Prosecutors said the purchase "was fraught with red flags", and the company never met the dealer, working with a middleman instead, and making the payments to seven private bank accounts."[1]

Any legal counsel or consultants that Hobby Lobby would have used in attempting such a transaction would have apprised them of these red flags. The provenance of the items and the legitimacy of the sale would also have been surfaced with even a modicum of proper due diligence.

David Green Hobby Lobby's CEO and the person who oversaw this is worth over 5 billion dollars. It's unlikely they he didn't have the resources to properly vet such a significant transaction.[2]

Its worth noting this glaring excerpt from the recent Atlantic article:

"Law-enforcement officials report that in 2010, Hobby Lobby’s president, Steve Green, visited the United Arab Emirates with an antiquities consultant to inspect more than 5,548 artifacts. The objects—which were precious and collectively worth millions of dollars—“were displayed informally,” the complaint stated, “spread on the floor, arranged in layers on a coffee table, and packed loosely in cardboard boxes, in many instances with little or no protective material between them.” They included cuneiform tablets, which display writing used in ancient Mesopotamia, and clay bullae, or balls of clay printed with ancient seals."[3]

>"Also, would you arrest someone who purchased an item at a yard sale that had been stolen at one point? "

That's a total straw man. To compare buying an item at a neighbors yards sale to buying a large quantity of antiquities from a war torn country for millions of dollar from people you never met is a joke.

The "aww shucks we didn't know" bit of false naivete is insulting. The issue of looted antiquities from the region is not exactly an esoteric subject. A google search using the terms "stolen antiquities war Iraq" shows 3.4 million results.

What's more likely is that Steve Green's legal council explained the downside risk to him was that if caught he would be slapped with a fine in the low millions. A slap on the wrist for someone of his outsized wealth.

[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40516932

]2 https://www.forbes.com/profile/david-green/

[3] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/hobby-l...

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#84
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your mind it's just flat-out impossible that the decision-makers here didn't fully grasp the complexities of the arena they were entering into? The linked article says that the most we know for sure is that "an expert on cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby" warned the company of some things and the company ignored those things. It doesn't say who heard the warning, who called the final shots, or what…

Being realistic instead of assuming the legal scrutiny level of a judge, the burden of proof is on them here IMO. When you spend millions of dollars on antiquities, you are at least casually interested in their provenance... Especially when you've hired an expert.

Isn't that kind of the point of hiring an expert?

If you knew the provenance of an item, what it was worth, and how it was obtained, why waste money on hiring an expert?

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And perhaps equally infuriating and insulting is this Christian company not taking any responsibility for the theft or funding terrorists. From the BBC articles; >'Hobby Lobby said it "did not fully appreciate the complexities" of the import process when it began' and >'The company imprudently relied on dealers and shippers who, in hindsight, did not understand the correct way to document and ship these items," Hobby…

So how did this go down, in your mind? The President of Hobby Lobby got his eyes on some shiny objects, then was told to make the check out to Al-Qaeda, and decided that it was worth funding terrorism to get the items he'd been lusting after? Also, would you arrest someone who purchased an item at a yard sale that had been stolen at one point? Come to think of it, should I be grilling every yard sale proprietor to ma…

Yes if you buy a $1 million diamond at a yard sale for $5 you may go to jail for being the dumbest person on earth.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#87
post #4

Saw on Twitter that someone called them the "Wahhabi Lobby". But actually, it seems ridiculous to me that this only warranted a $3m settlement. They've (almost certainly) been indirectly funding ISIS by robbing a country of its cultural artifacts. Not cool.

To me this seems tantamount to funding terrorists and yet no one will spend even 1 hour in jail. From a purely practical perspective, why doesn't the government pursue prison for individuals involved in this?

If you think the law has anything to do with justice I've got a bridge to nowhere for sale ...

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#88

Don't be silly. Only poor, dark-skinned people get convicted of inadvertently supporting terrorism. Good White Christians make honest mistakes.

I know. I'm wondering if I'm white and rich enough to avoid consequences for having "giving money to terrorist organizations" in my browser history.

Re: Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

#89
post #50
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how the "justice" system works in America. Giant crime by a party with a lot of money? DOJ will just slap you with a relatively small fine. Bag of weed? You're going to jail, buddy!

The difference is that in drug cases, there is almost always overwhelming proof that someone committed a crime. Nobody has a kilo of cocaine shoved down their waistband and doesn't know about it. In a case like this, maybe it's a "giant crime," or maybe it's just a customs violation. Unless you have proof of the entity's state of mind, it's impossible to tell the difference.

If you think officers need a shred of proof to arrest somebody and judges need a shred of proof to convict, i've got a bridge to nowhere for sale ...

the us criminal system is a machine run for profit, not for justice, simply because SOME of the convicts are murderers is simply correlation

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