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Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

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Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#161
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're generally correct for the folks who have decent salaried careers. If I got asked to justify a regular random day or two I took off as PTO I'd tell HR to pound sand as anyone rightfully should. Get into hourly low wage stuff and you are treated like children, many shops require a doctor's note for any and all absences with 1 or 2 dermits until you're fired. This has reasons from both ends of course. When I was…

>by the low-wage masses abusing it (and abuse it they did). This feeds directly into the popular narrative that the working poor somehow lack moral fortitude. Do you have evidence to justify this claim?

>> by the low-wage masses abusing it (and abuse it they did).

> This feeds directly into the popular narrative that the working poor somehow lack moral fortitude. Do you have evidence to justify this claim?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's far more common among low-wage-job-holders that aren't poor, actually.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two dangers around this perspective seem evident to me: 1. Diagnosing others based on second hand information. Presumably not as a professional either. 2. Attempting to define right and "wrong" behavior in a psychological context. On (1): you experience a vast minority of Trump's or Job's life (unless you know them personally). How can you possibly hold to those claims? You have no idea how either of them acted in no…

There's plenty of material out on the personal lives of Jobs and Trump. Steve exhibited a range of very odd behavior and some of it was clearly detrimental (see how he denied his paternity to the point of delusion). If we can't call that bad behavior than we have no stance on proper morals. Trump also projects as someone with a personality disorder. We have plenty of material to suggest that his behavior is in fact u…

By claiming that public figures can be diagnosed by someone who doesn't know them personally, I get the impression you have no idea what is actually involved in a psychological diagnosis. For example, many mental health issues can be the result of physical health issues. In such cases the mental effects are considered part of the physical illness and a separate mental diagnosis is not given. This means that someone's full medical history is necessary for a diagnosis of mental illness. Clinical psychology isn't just running around throwing diagnoses at people who seem sufficiently "crazy", there's lots of specific rules. To get a sense of what is actually required for a diagnosis, reading sections of the DSM-V is invaluable. Here's a link: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_xpcySB9uWfejF1S0xlLU95Y2M/...

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#164
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're generally correct for the folks who have decent salaried careers. If I got asked to justify a regular random day or two I took off as PTO I'd tell HR to pound sand as anyone rightfully should. Get into hourly low wage stuff and you are treated like children, many shops require a doctor's note for any and all absences with 1 or 2 dermits until you're fired. This has reasons from both ends of course. When I was…

>by the low-wage masses abusing it (and abuse it they did). This feeds directly into the popular narrative that the working poor somehow lack moral fortitude. Do you have evidence to justify this claim?

> This feeds directly into the popular narrative that the working poor somehow lack moral fortitude.

Not really. Not every bad job is held by an oppressed proletariat. Many times they're held by mischievous PFYs who still think they're immortal and that $20 is a lot of money. Youthful indiscretions are one the most common sources of this type of behavior. It's extremely common to not have a professional attitude in your "first real job", or to not even consider most minimum wage jobs as a "real job". There's an entire genre of movies that relies on this culture. Slacker culture has been part of pop culture for decades, now. When you don't have any actual responsibilities it's pretty common to treat any new ones like a big joke, or as "suggestions".

And it doesn't just happen at work - there are people with extremely cavalier attitudes towards education. I had a conversation with my kid about other kids getting around attendance rules in high school by showing up to class and then "going to the bathroom" and not returning to class again. Skipping class to go smoke, race, shop, etc has been a thing for at least 50 years. It's kind of telling, though, that most slacker movies were about college-age (or younger) kids. Ones for adults (e.g. Office Space) are pretty rare and rather niche.

It's important that we recognize that professionalism is not a natural (or an exclusive) trait. Babies don't pop out of the womb screaming "Please advise." The teenage years are full of people pushing boundaries to learn how they fit into society. We expect mistakes at that age, and those expectations are frequently met.

I've literally met hundreds of people who blew off classes because they weren't the ones paying for it, or who called in sick after a hangover or because they didn't like their job. I've stood around at parties listening to people tell stories of how they ditched work. I had a co-worker call in sick because he "couldn't get his car out of the garage." And having six dead grandmothers in a year is a trope now. It's not everyone, for sure, but it happens. It's just that people do it less with the jobs that they value in the careers they've invested into.

That said, we do need a lot of labor reforms around hours worked, employee rights and privacy, cost of living adjustments, etc. And we need better safety nets for citizens. But those will always extend far more slowly to a job that can be filled by 90% of the population. The supply of entry-level workers far outstrips the demand.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are objective tests for all of these pathologies, though those tests are often inconclusive in the face of the symptoms. No, objective tests are in these cases used to exclude other causes to the symptoms, not to diagnose the mentioned illnesses. These are diagnoses of exclusion[1]. > There are physical symptoms of mental illness, but as yet there is no proof of physical causes, which is why the chairman of t…

>it's not feasible to haphazardly take biopsies of the brain to test for them It is feasible post mortem but scientists still have no conslusive proof from such examinations. >Conversely, my point still stands that the vast majority of somatic illnesses are diagnosed off subjective symptoms - doctors don't bother doing objective lab tests for a cold or a sprained ankle when the diagnosis is glaringly obvious based of…

You're creating the same false equivalence again by stating that an objective post mortem diagnosis not being practically feasible is the same as an objective cause(s) not existing. In my previous post I linked to multiple pages listing objective causes/mechanisms for two mental illnesses. Diagnosing a mental illness post mortem isn't as simple as finding rhinovirus in a person's nasal cavity, but just because the current knowledge of the disease isn't sufficient to create a satisfactory model that can reliably make a diagnosis post mortem doesn't mean that it can't be done. And if you don't think mental illnesses subside in molecules and physical structures in the brain, where exactly do you think they come from?

Oh, and you kind of can diagnose certain mental illnesses post mortem: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181616/

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#166
post #61

Great article. A few years ago (at a previous job) I took a sick day for "sanity", but told them I wasn't feeling well. I felt guilty about doing it. I think part of it is the association of sick leave with externally visible medical issues, and the corresponding "straightforward" medical verification. In other words, if you have a temperature or are vomiting, that's obvious. Many infections or physical injury can be…

I'm a bit confused, how is a mental sick day different from just taking a day off? Right now I can just request a day off with no explanation required as long as it's one day in advance. Is a "mental sick day" like waking up, going "!@#$%@#^! I'm sick of dealing with work" and calling in sick on the same day?

There are times when I get a really bad night of sleep and mentally can't function the next day. I could take the day off get rest and come back the next day at 100%. Or I can come in anyway working at 10% mental capacity not get any rest and likely still not be at full capacity the next day.

The problem is that this scenario is socially viewed as my foult or being irresponsible; I should have seen to it that I got good sleep. If I slip off of my porch and hurt my back no one questions me not coming in; No "You should have used the handrail" or "maybe de-ice your steps regularly"

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#167
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I've never heard of anyone here being asked for a verification, but it would tend to discourage people doing the "sanity day" sort of thing. I suspect that the lack of trust this indicates on the part of the company (not to mention foster on the part of the employee) is probably a sign that you're past the point of no return. I suspect a company that asked for verification was not doing so to see if you were genui…

You're generally correct for the folks who have decent salaried careers. If I got asked to justify a regular random day or two I took off as PTO I'd tell HR to pound sand as anyone rightfully should. Get into hourly low wage stuff and you are treated like children, many shops require a doctor's note for any and all absences with 1 or 2 dermits until you're fired. This has reasons from both ends of course. When I was…

Culture can matter a great deal as well. In my experience working in Japan and Taiwan, everyone is considered an immature child that must be babysat minute by minute.

My go-to story: Friend in Japan's train route was significantly delayed by a suicide. Rather than sit in the train station for ~2 hours waiting for cleanup, he leaves, gets on his motorcycle, and rides to work. Shows up 30 minutes late, but his pay is docked those 30 minutes, because unlike everyone else that showed up 2 hours later, he didn't have the little ticket they give you in Japan when your train is delayed. Regardless of him telling HR the situation, showing his house on the train route, etc, nope, he didn't have the slip from mommy, so his pay got docked.

I love working there, but the work culture is infuriating.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're being downvoted, thought you had some great points. As someone who has struggled with mental health myself in the past, I'm kind of wary of the whole "let's reduce depression down to how we would treat a broken arm." argument. While it's good intentioned, and I totally agree we need to reduce its stigma in society, I wonder if it does more harm then good in the long run. Depression is a disease of…

>(If you can't tell, I think the biochemical causes of depression are a bit overemphasized in today's society.) this is actually "necessary" in the sense that it prevents discussion of other equally substantive depression-causing things such as a precarious lifestyle contingent upon retaining paid employment. put differently: depression is multifactorial, but the medical consensus is that it's connected to anxiety. a…

While progress might be slow, I still believe that more humanistic values can exist within a capitalist institution, because at the end of the day, a corporation is just another human endeavor.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#169
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen some companies in the UK operate what they call a "duvet day" policy. It's basically just two floating holidays a year you can choose to use at any time, doesn't require explanation and doesn't count as a sick day. I personally haven't worked somewhere with such a policy, but know some people who do, using it largely as a "sanity day" as you describe. They really seem to appreciate it. I'm in no way trying…

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's called a personal day here in the states. They usually give you two a year too, along with sick days. Though I do agree, that there's stigma towards taking it for personal sanity, mind healing.

I thought "personal days" are when they put sick days and vacation in the same bucket (which a lot of companies do)?

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>by the low-wage masses abusing it (and abuse it they did). This feeds directly into the popular narrative that the working poor somehow lack moral fortitude. Do you have evidence to justify this claim?

If his experience was anything like mine it isn't the working poor. It is the young workers who are not poor. They are still living at home: they do not need to pay for their room, meals eaten at home, health insurance. That is every penny they earn is pure spending money and so despite making minimum wage they are rich with no need to work as many hours as they do. When I was working minimum wage there was also the…

So basically you're boiling it down to sex and laying down the guilt at the feet of the healthy young adults whose behavior is all but unexpected.

Wouldn't you rather call it the failure of a community - a society - to prepare its new members to the complexities of life?

Oh but it's easy to climb up the high horse, brandish the sword of Morals and throw the erring off the tower (incidentally, it's the same ISIS does to its own "deviants")

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