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Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

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Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#151

Post by xname2 »

novia wrote: post #115
xname2 wrote: post #38

Shouldn't vacation days be used to help your mental health? If vacation days are not enough, there might be a more serious problem ...

If you're getting ready for work in the morning and you're suddenly hit with an overwhelming panic attack and you feel afraid to leave your house, that doesn't leave much time to request the day off to use for vacation. Most people will judge you if you call in and say "I am experiencing extreme anxiety this morning and I'm afraid of leaving the house, so I won't be coming in today." So instead you shoot your coworke…

No. When I said "serious problem" I meant the patient. Yes, people need to pay bills, but it is not your employer's responsibility.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#152

Post by alasdair_ »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #106
clfougner wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afraid that's not true. Around 60-80% of diagnoses in primary care settings are made purely on the basis of the patient history (followed by a brief clinical examination which usually aims at eliciting subjective responses)[1]. In principle it's true that you could find a pathological explanation for all somatic ("physical") diseases which in practice are diagnosed off patient histories (with the exception of disease…

>fibromyalgia, IBS, CFS There are objective tests for all of these pathologies, though those tests are often inconclusive in the face of the symptoms. >If you don't think there's a physical basis for mental illnesses though, skim through the figures in this article[2] for a prime example of the ways modern medicine is disproving that. There are physical symptoms of mental illness, but as yet there is no proof of phys…

>There are objective tests for all of these pathologies, though those tests are often inconclusive in the face of the symptoms.

Nothing good, sadly.

My wife was in banking for twelve years and worked her way up from a teller to a fairly senior position. Her work ethic was spectacular - she had just two sick days in the previous five years and she was promoted almost yearly, always receiving an excellent review.

A few years ago, she went from having occasional discomfort to waking with fairly severe pain daily. It got so bad that she had to take time off, and eventually took FMLA for a full twelve weeks to see if it would help. It didn't and she was fired soon after.

She filed for disability after being diagnosed with Fybromyalgia. Our lawyer sent her to bother specialist doctors and independent testing labs to get complete documentation. They had her complete various tasks like screwing in a screwdriver, raising a weight above her head for X seconds etc. and then asked her to rate her pain levels and other self-reported things.

In the end, she was denied for disability, mostly because disability is no longer about actually being disabled - it's now about essentially filling the gap between welfare and medicaid. In the written opinion however, the stated reason was that all the evidence was self-reported, implying she could be making it all up (because who wouldn't want to give up a successful and lucrative career for some minimal-level disability payments).

Anyway, I learned two main things:

1. There are no commonly accepted objective tests for pain - it's almost all self-reporting.

2. The disability system in the US is heavily used as supplemental welfare.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#153

Post by phil21 »

artimaeis wrote: post #113
omegaworks wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>by the low-wage masses abusing it (and abuse it they did). This feeds directly into the popular narrative that the working poor somehow lack moral fortitude. Do you have evidence to justify this claim?

I'm not the person you're asking, but I have my own experience which mirrors theirs. Only 5 years ago I was working hourly just above minimum wage in a job I disliked. The management had a very strict tardiness and absence policy, and a strike system that meant if were absent without proper excuse more than 2 times in a 3 month period you were terminated. I didn't exactly have a traditional support system while I had…

I think your post articulates what I was trying to say much better, without going into the tangents I typically do.

Absolutely mirrors my experience to a T. I wasn't intending to put a moral stance on any of this, but you did a much better job at explaining that.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#154

Post by alasdair_ »

calafrax wrote: post #109
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Medically speaking a mental illness is no different than a physical illness. I am a proponent of taking time off for mental health, but I have to nitpick here. Medically speaking, physical illness is different from mental illness. One is diagnosed from objective scientific tests (pathology) while the other is not.

A doctor administered evaluation or a patient self-survey is just as objective as any other test. These tests take a measurement and based on peer-reviewed statistical studies make a determination as to whether or not the measurement falls into a pathological range. This is exactly the same as measuring blood pressure or cholesterol. You read a number and decide if there is a statistically valid correlation between t…

This isn't true. These tests are NOT objective if the patient has an incentive to lie about their self-reporting, either in the stoic "it's fine" sense or in the "I want more opiates" or "I want to get some paid sick days" sense.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#155

Post by e40 »

neap24 wrote: post #145

I don't understand. Why isn't it standard practice to just issue a set of "personal days" without regard to "sickness", "leisure", or "mental sanity"? My company switched to this a couple of years ago and doesn't require an explanation. They are your days off, take them as you see fit.

It is for a lot of companies. It's called "PTO" or Paid Time Off.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#156

Post by TuringNYC »

maxxxxx wrote: post #20
BadassFractal wrote: post #10

First hand experience. As a founder it's terrifying to let people know that you are experiencing debilitating levels of burnout, anxiety and moderate depression that prevent you from being effective at your job. There are days when you're just sitting there staring at your screen for 10 hours hoping nobody can tell you're checked out. You put on a smile, try to follow the usual routine as a robot, and secretly go to…

As a founder you could also set a positive example and say "I can't get anything done today" and take a break. Fixed working hours are one of the biggest problems in a profession like software engineering. On some days you just can't get anything done. It would be better to just take the day off and come back fresh the next day instead of sitting around and pretending that you are working.

I hope we can differentiate between mental blocks and illness, but if you are in the former category, try switching to different classes of tasks. If you are in the "illness" category, ignore this comment all-together.

I do have days where I cant get code done, but luckily there are other things that work well on those days -- like catching up on research paper queues or audit/accounting/cleaning. Accounting/cleaning has a strangely and remedial quality, there is something soothing about getting things to balance perfectly and into order.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#157

Post by alasdair_ »

calafrax wrote: post #142
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>patient self-survey is just as objective as any other test. Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. Objective: (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

What is the difference between being depressed and "feeling" depressed? What is the difference between being schizophrenic and having the "opinion" that Satan speaks to you through your neighbor's cat? Mental illness is defined by what a person feels and believes. What you feel and believe is subjective but you can objectively establish that a particular cluster of subjective feelings and beliefs is abnormal vis-a-vi…

> >What is the difference between being depressed and "feeling" depressed? >What is the difference between being schizophrenic and having the "opinion" that Satan speaks to you through your neighbor's cat? >Mental illness is defined by what a person feels and believes.

Honestly, a lot of the time it comes down to observable impact. If a patient comes to a doctor and says that they feel depressed, that's one thing, if they have lost their third job this year because they can't do anything but lie in bed and seem to not care about their own lives (especially if they used to not be like this in the past) that's something else.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#159

Post by thedaemon »

rnprince wrote: post #67
DonbunEf7 wrote: post #28

I couldn't afford to do this. My mental illness is sufficiently severe that I need months, not days, to unpack and unwind, and I haven't felt not-burnt-out in about half a decade. I only get to do this between jobs. I'm glad that this situation worked out alright for the employee, but there often isn't enough sick leave available.

Does FMLA leave apply for cases like yours?

From personal experience, it does not.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#160

Post by djhworld »

neap24 wrote: post #145

I don't understand. Why isn't it standard practice to just issue a set of "personal days" without regard to "sickness", "leisure", or "mental sanity"? My company switched to this a couple of years ago and doesn't require an explanation. They are your days off, take them as you see fit.

It's strange to have that allowance laid out as a fixed number up front.

Most of my jobs in my career have offered 25-30 days paid holiday, plus the 8 or so days of public holidays, and paid sick leave.

That way you don't fall into a trap of debating whether you should use your last allotted "personal day" on something you might thing isn't worth taking it for as you might need it later.

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