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A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

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Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#61

Post by DrScump »

bitwize wrote: post #26
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I want people who work for me to retire in their 50s and own their own boats,” she says. God that sounds terrible anyway. Do that many people want to retire - literally have nothing greater than themselves that requires their input on a daily basis - and go sit on a boat? What a waste.

Ever own a boat? Believe me, it's not something you just sit on. Maintaining a boat can be hard, and fulfilling, work for a retiree.

Having a large boat for recreation (rather than work, like fishing) is sort of a cultural symbol for wealth (in the USA, anyway).

The California Lottery's current TV spot shows a youngish guy on a yacht, with a pony.

It's perhaps inspired by the old Lyle Lovett song, "If I Had a Boat", which says:

  "If I had a boat
  I'd sail across the ocean

  and if I had a pony
  I'd ride him on my boat."

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#62

Post by zucchini_head »

afuchs wrote: post #50
zucchini_head wrote: post #21

I have a little story about this kind of thing, where doing something rather simple and low-skill can make an absolute fortune. One night I was talking to an older friend of a friend, 50+, around a year ago now. We were talking about what we did for a living and what we got paid. We started off with what he did: He's a bricklayer, nothing more, and told me that they get paid per brick they lay. It's something like £4…

> I asked, as any sane person would, something along the lines of "why isn't everyone and his dog laying bricks?". And the reply was very intriguing. He said essentially that younger people these days (my age) don't want to lay bricks every day now, or don't have the stamina. They want to go on their phones and become world-famous and important and work on new gizmos and apps every day and be looked at by everyone an…

It's about willing to do the job good, and not just for the money I think.

But anyway, I think that maybe my above story is all just gobblewash. Overnight, I was thinking about how all these jobs that pay a lot for rather low-skill labour are all related to real-estate. Wood and bricks are what makes houses. I wonder if the good pay comes from that, rather than not many people wanting to do it.

Regardless, it's the opinion now quite a few of these labourers hold now - that the younger generation aren't able to do what they do. Maybe that's a little short-sighted, maybe it's on to something wrong with the future generations, maybe it's just wrong. Who knows.

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#63

Post by sangnoir »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #56
sangnoir wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Going through life simply for pleasure is the sure fire way to have no lasting impact. Not everyone wants that. Some people have had their run "making impact" and want nothing more than to spend time with their loved ones and enjoy their hobbies. I strongly doubt they'll be on their deathbeds thinking "I regret wasting all that time spent with family and doing things I love; I ought to have made a bigger impact at…

Not everyone wants that. Sure, in which case they shouldn't be complaining about not having impactful work. I strongly doubt they'll be on their deathbeds thinking "I regret wasting all that time spent with family and doing things I love; I ought to have made a bigger impact at work instead" This is a false narrative and not mutually exclusive with doing important work. Most people die suddenly without a community su…

> This is a false narrative and not mutually exclusive with doing important work.

It seems like you're noting a weakness in your original argument as you set up the dichotomy. In reference to aspiring to life on a boat in retirement, you had said:

>> At the end of the day it's just indulgence, not actually using your potential to the fullest. Going through life simply for pleasure is the sure fire way to have no lasting impact.

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#64

Post by RealityNow »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #42
RealityNow wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retirement = freedom. I don't know about you, but I want the freedom to not have to work for anybody else.

No, Power & Wealth = Freedom. The freedom to act as you want and to prevent others from acting on you. Retirement means you have taken yourself out of the power dynamic and limited your wealth potential.

You're being pedantic. When I said retirement, I was obviously referring to financial independence. Financial independence is what enables a person to spend their time doing whatever it is they want, ie. freedom.

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#65

Post by antisthenes »

zucchini_head wrote: post #21

I have a little story about this kind of thing, where doing something rather simple and low-skill can make an absolute fortune. One night I was talking to an older friend of a friend, 50+, around a year ago now. We were talking about what we did for a living and what we got paid. We started off with what he did: He's a bricklayer, nothing more, and told me that they get paid per brick they lay. It's something like £4…

> Apologies if this was long and off-topic, but I hope it's left some kind of thought somewhere.

Yeah, tl;dr - confirmation bias and sample of n=1

There are data points available for median wages of bricklayers and they are nowhere near the figures you described.

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#66

Post by gorkonsine »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #55
gorkonsine wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is the point of having wealth if you have to put up with the same ol' rat race?

Cause it ceases to be a "rat race" when you control the rules of the race.

How exactly is someone with enough money to retire able to control the rules of the race? We're talking about real people here, people who have enough money to pay off a middle-class house and live off investments, not mega-wealthy people able to buy a mega-yacht like Paul Allen. Some middle-class guy who has enough money to retire is NOT going to be able to enjoy the workplace of his dreams working for someone else. The rational thing for him to do is retire and work on his own personal projects at home in peace.

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#67

Post by gorkonsine »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #52
gorkonsine wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Who said anything about working in an office? You said before: "Do that many people want to retire - literally have nothing greater than themselves that requires their input on a daily basis" What else would people be doing if they don't retire, than working? And working means having to deal with all the crap that goes along with working: the open-plan office, meetings, the daily stand-up, office politics, etc. Why…

put up with the annoyances that are unavoidable at work. If that's all it takes to deter you, then I don't have much else to offer I suppose other than those annoyances are everywhere in life.

No, they really aren't. I can stay at home in my home lab/workshop and have it set up just how I want and be very productive and happy. I can't do that in any workplace. Without a regular job, I can spend my time associating only with people that I like, not people I'm forced to work with. Without a regular job, I don't have to deal with power structures and hierarchies inherent in workplaces; I have complete freedom of association. Stuff like this is precisely why many people are happy to retire.

Sure, a retired person may still have to deal with some annoyances, like the local government placing restrictions on what they can do with their property, having to pay taxes, etc., but they can sure minimize the number of annoyances they have to put up with in their daily lives a lot. They can even move somewhere else if they want, without having to worry about that new location being close to a paying job.

It's really weird how dead-set against retirement and freedom you are.

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#68

Post by AndrewKemendo »

sangnoir wrote: post #63
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone wants that. Sure, in which case they shouldn't be complaining about not having impactful work. I strongly doubt they'll be on their deathbeds thinking "I regret wasting all that time spent with family and doing things I love; I ought to have made a bigger impact at work instead" This is a false narrative and not mutually exclusive with doing important work. Most people die suddenly without a community su…

> This is a false narrative and not mutually exclusive with doing important work. It seems like you're noting a weakness in your original argument as you set up the dichotomy. In reference to aspiring to life on a boat in retirement, you had said: >> At the end of the day it's just indulgence, not actually using your potential to the fullest. Going through life simply for pleasure is the sure fire way to have no last…

There is no dichotomy by default. In practice, most people can't seem to balance them, but I'd argue it's because they chose their partners/friends etc... wrong. Ever hear of a "Power couple?"

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#69

Post by AndrewKemendo »

gorkonsine wrote: post #66
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cause it ceases to be a "rat race" when you control the rules of the race.

How exactly is someone with enough money to retire able to control the rules of the race? We're talking about real people here, people who have enough money to pay off a middle-class house and live off investments, not mega-wealthy people able to buy a mega-yacht like Paul Allen. Some middle-class guy who has enough money to retire is NOT going to be able to enjoy the workplace of his dreams working for someone else.…

people who have enough money to pay off a middle-class house and live off investments

Because that's not freedom. That's some middling low rent outcome.

Freedom means I don't have to wait in line if I don't want to. That if a hurricane comes through and destroys my house, I can just move to another one without trouble. That if I get Liver cancer, I can buy a house in Tennessee and skip the donor wait list in California (Like Steve Jobs did). It means the local cops won't bully me and my family because I paid for all of their fancy new equipment. Etc...

Freedom is not sitting idle in some garage fiddling with some bullshit. It's about being able to act with as wide as options as possible.

Re: A labor market conundrum: Skilled and high-paying blue-collar jobs go unfilled

#70

Post by gorkonsine »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #69
gorkonsine wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly is someone with enough money to retire able to control the rules of the race? We're talking about real people here, people who have enough money to pay off a middle-class house and live off investments, not mega-wealthy people able to buy a mega-yacht like Paul Allen. Some middle-class guy who has enough money to retire is NOT going to be able to enjoy the workplace of his dreams working for someone else.…

people who have enough money to pay off a middle-class house and live off investments Because that's not freedom. That's some middling low rent outcome. Freedom means I don't have to wait in line if I don't want to. That if a hurricane comes through and destroys my house, I can just move to another one without trouble. That if I get Liver cancer, I can buy a house in Tennessee and skip the donor wait list in Californ…

So what the hell are you arguing for anyway? Becoming a multi-millionaire? That's simply not possible for most people. What the hell is your point?
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