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I'm not a Woman in Tech

communequation.wordpress.com

561–570 of 621 posts

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you could in theory be disciminated against for your shortness, or fatness, or mirth, or fashion sense, opinion, or eyebrow girth. However... Have you ever been held captive & forced into labour on the basis of your atheism? Has your father ever been told you deserved no democratic vote because of your weight? Have you ever told you weren't allowed to marry someone else because of your height? Have you ever been…

I'm not "comparing" anything. Simply pointing out that non-white / non-male individuals don't have a monopoly on experiencing discrimination. Nothing you said above contradicts that in any way. I'm not saying that certain group don't experience more or even more severe discrimination. But this narrative that seems so prevalent today, the whole "you can't know anything about discrimination if you're a white male, and…

You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way.

You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I made that prompted you to reply; I haven't yet seen a criticism of that point but we can discuss it if you like.

Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful.

The net effect of this type of comment is to minimise the more severe discrimination experienced by women and minorities. To diminish the power of their experience.

So, to sum up; you replied to me to argue against a straw man, with the effect (conscious or not) of minimising the discrimination suffered by women and minorities.

My best guess is that you feel guilt by association, possibly insecurity. You're fed up of feeling that and are pushing back in order to feel better. It's understandable, it's natural.

I've got two points to make here that might help:

(1) There are other ways to make yourself feel better. Listening to people & helping is a good one. Reframe yourself as someone helping solve the problem, rather than someone trying to diminish the problem.

(2) Society is not a zero sum game. Raising up women and minorities does not mean knocking down men, even though sometimes it might feel that way.

Hope that helps. Thanks for the up-vote, right back at you.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#562
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but as a group, it's undeniable that there's extra obstacles I'm not sure you can really say that. It's true, women as a group encounter problems with being treated as sex objects, and there are cultural reasons for that, blah blah blah. So women have a unique experience. BUT! Men experience a pressure to succeed that we as women can hardly fathom. Consequently, they wind up in jobs they need , in a way we never wi…

Not sure I agree that men have a pressure to succeed that women don't. My wife faced plenty of this pressure in her software career: as a point of professional pride, as a prerequisite to career advancement, and because her family raised her to be financially independent. Stuff you cite was all stuff my wife went through as much as I.

He is talking about a generalization. Just like men can be victims of sexual harassment as well but it is most likely more common that women are.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mere offering of assistance to people who do not need it, and feel they should not need it, can be construed as insulting. EDIT: As mentioned to in another comment, "Special treatment feels condescending."

Honestly, why take things like that personally? Why liken it to a ghetto ? Is your pride really so hurt that someone wanted to help you out around the office that you refuse to believe that you could have learned anything useful from it? You can't even come out of it with another friend, a future business contact, an interpersonal skill, deeper knowledge of a workplace tool? It's great if some people don't think they…

"why take things personally?" The same could probably be asked of many of the "sexist barriers" you allude to. Intentions And pragmatism have never been relevant with regards to inclusivity; why should they now be? Because the offender has the right politics?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand how a corporate policy like an "intern buddy" can be compared to a ghetto or even how it remotely hurts you in the same way that an unspoken "boys club" office setting would. A corporate policy like that is pretty clearly an impersonal management-type fluff program that does not solve every problem that could possibly arise from sexism, but that serves a resource for a few people desperately…

The mere offering of assistance to people who do not need it, and feel they should not need it, can be construed as insulting. EDIT: As mentioned to in another comment, "Special treatment feels condescending."

Good answer to a good (sincere) question. Thanks.

"Paternalistic" is the word that pops into my head. I really like "condescending" too.

Projecting the belief that we know what's best for other people, the arrogance, is why so many hate "liberal elites" like me. Whereas I'm trying to figure out ways to empower others, many of my cohort continue to unwittingly disempower others.

I definitely don't have any useful answers, insights.

(Aside: "liberal elites" are the mirror image of the "fundamentalists", for lack of better terms, who also know what's best for other people. This is not a left vs right issue.)

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it implies an opinion of weakness to the party offering said "help". Many people do not need or want help and forcing it on them only serves to enforce hidden power dynamics on behalf of the requestor. What I really don't understand is how we men can act so innocent about all this. "Oh, I was just asking a question," "I didn't force her to do anything," "she was free to decline," "what, how could you not want…

So am I supposed to feel equally condescended to by the man in upper management who calls me "sweetie" and the woman who has organized some person to show me around the office and introduce me to people? Okay.

Why interpret one charitably and not the other? I survived being called "honey" by a woman in management; I didn't take offense because it would never occur to me to spin a well-intentioned comment for victim points. I fully realize that cute nicknames can be used in condescending tones, but then the issue is being condescending, not the nickname. I also realize that the genders are reversed, and that's supposed to make the nickname more offensive or invalidate my opinion or something; just to head this one off early--it doesn't.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men-only clubs were broadly a problem because (at the time they were prevalent) men and their clubs held a significant portion of the money and power in society. Exclusion was an extreme sanction. Why do women-only tech events bother you? Do you think women are meeting up to exert power over you?

They don't bother me, it is just that I think they might hurt women more than they help. If they helped we should have seen it in the statistics a long time ago. Instead I think that they just redistribute the women who already are in tech to different schools/companies. You could say that doing something is better than doing nothing even if it is worthless, but I don't agree. Celebrating tokenism just means that com…

> They don't bother me, it is just that I think they might hurt women more than they help.

Perhaps you can see why being told by you (presumably a man) that they shouldn't do the thing that they want to do because you know what's best for them might not go down well? Be my guest :)

You'll find that people make choices for reasons other than industry statistics. Many people feel more comfortable at those events because mainstream events can have conduct issues and bias issues.

Of course exclusive events are far from an ideal, but labelling them as "worthless" misunderstands why people do them.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#567
post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men-only clubs were broadly a problem because (at the time they were prevalent) men and their clubs held a significant portion of the money and power in society. Exclusion was an extreme sanction. Why do women-only tech events bother you? Do you think women are meeting up to exert power over you?

They bother me on a fundamental fairness level. It you change the pronouns and suddenly its unacceptable to you, then clearly it is also unacceptable as is. For example, if mens only clubs and events are wrong, then so too are women only events.

How do other issues bother you on a "fundamental fairness level"? Such as the incidents of workplace harassment in STEM fields that have been coming out in the last year? Or income inequality / options available to people by class they were born in?

I notice a lot of people saying what you're saying, that safe spaces or clubs for certain types of people are the "reverse" of whatever ___ism they're trying to address.

Certainly you realize there are systemic issues that are causing much greater offenses to the idea of "fundamental fairness" yet you seem to concentrate specifically on minor conceptual issues with the methods of the people trying to address it. That's pretty telling.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#568
post #267

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly…

I was on a United flight a year or two ago, and before the flight they showed a video that was all female United employees talking about how United cared about women, and how women at United were pilots, and women were maintenance people, and how women made United work! If I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to see that video. I think I would literally cover her eyes and ears. Sure, it's helpful for a little girl to…

[deleted]

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#569
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of the article. It's not that these things don't exist, or didn't exist for her -- of course they do. The point seems, to me at least, to be that in order to attempt to actually solve these problems you can't actively (or passively) try to exclude yourself from the people causing them. It's like politics -- if you separate yourself into "us" versus "them", how are you ever supposed to…

I've been in enough of these conversations to know replies like this are just trolling and/or white-noise. Why NOT separate yourselves into an "us" vs "them"? Why should oppressed people try to "work together" with their oppressors? If you're so interested the effectiveness of social movements, why haven't you looked at cases like Susan Fowler's to see how little it accomplishes to "work together", or within the syst…

We live in a society. If we don't work together to solve our issues then we'll languish and die apart.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#570

There's an interesting dichotomy on the "women in tech" question between "SV tech" and non-SV tech. I briefly worked at a tech company making oil industry software in .NET in a Houston suburb. Not trendy, cubicles, but they paid fine (and unlike my current job the office was quiet). I quickly noticed that half of my coworkers were not only women, but a lot were people of color and older (I actually think I was the on…

Absolutely. People are rarely willing to talk about class in these discussions, but the reality is that not only have we created an industry with a gender imbalance, we've created an industry with a culture that prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) over everything else. Thus you have 'casual' workplaces with games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc in which some peo…

> prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men)

> games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc

Do only men like those things?

I though beer/alcohol was western thing. Games consoles a dev/techy/nerd thing.

You also cherry picked a bit - these places might also have table football, is that a gendered activity too?

These things might be considered "young", "trendy" incentives, but saying they represent "male values" is something in need of more explanation.

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