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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#211

Post by tarsinge »

Latty wrote: post #91
aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

That seems a short-sighted way to look at it. Yes, of course in an ideal world these things would be non-issues, but they aren't. People are discriminated against, and there are barriers from culture that won't change without intentional scruity. Of course, everyone should be able to just do their job and no more. If you aren't interested in being a role model or trying to push for that equality, that's absolutely fi…

> Things don't magically get fixed culturally and socially - that takes an integration.

Not necessarily, I see 2 opinions on how to fix this :

- An "active integration" like you explain, where the differences are highlighted (what we mostly see in the US). The idea is that by forcing the change we'll get used to it.

- A post-racial/genre approach, where the differences are made as irrelevant as any physical trait, so the change comes naturally but it's a long process (what I've mostly seen in France)

IMHO the first approach may yield faster results, but only the second can solve cultural issues (in part by blurring and mixing the cultures, instead of crystallizing them)

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#212

Post by spinlock »

treehau5 wrote: post #9
serg_chernata wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.

> I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. I learned this lesson a long time ago from the role models in my life that ended up getting burned because of having a differing viewpoint from whatever societal winds were blowing. I, and I realize probably cynically, now only elect to share, post, tweet, or whatnot whatever only can positively benefit my "brand". Sometimes I have to act like my own PR…

I don't want to make this a Trump thing ... but I"m gonna. I didn't like that he tweeted the CNN clothesline but I just read their response which was doxing and extorting a bs apology from the creator. It shows that the problem is worse than you've pointed out. Even if you're relatively anonymous, you'll be guilty by association if someone uses your words and amplifies them in a way you never could.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#213

Post by k__ »

aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

I met a bunch of people who ride this train like no tomorrow.

They are devs but talk like their job is diversity managers...

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#214

Post by adventured »

dang wrote: post #187
adventured wrote: post #96

edit Why did my comment get dislodged from being underneath another comment that I was replying to? It's now showing as a stand-alone comment under the thread. ------------------------------------------- I'm doing a similar thing. I stopped posting anything personal on Facebook about a year ago and I never post to Twitter. I'll never go back to posting personal thoughts on social media, not under any circumstances. I…

We detached this from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14702885 and marked it off-topic. Generic ideological tangents lead to flamewars and are so low in information that they're off-topic even when they sound on-topic. For example, you guys have started arguing about "feminism" without the slightest reason to believe you mean the same thing by it. You'd think the triviality of such a disagreement would lower the…

> For example, you guys have started arguing about "feminism" without the slightest reason to believe you mean the same thing by it.

Fair point. Thanks for the clarification. Amusingly, the discussion about feminism was only supposed to be an example of something that tends to get social media discussions heated no matter what direction you go with it (and as something to generally be avoided as a business risk).

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#215

Post by mcbobbington »

adventured wrote: post #120
mercurysmessage wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are approaching this right. You are painting an entire group of people under the same brush... Also, feminism is promoting equality.

I disagree that feminism is promoting equality. I think I'm approaching it exactly right. Your response is conceptually exactly why I no longer post opinions as myself on social media now. If this were a personal discussion on Facebook or Twitter, the left's censorship/control attack wave would be rolling in right now, calling me countless labels (instead, here you'll just get downvotes, your life won't be ruined and…

Adventured is right, about both feminism and censorship. I think the ERA would actually help men more than women. Right now it is much better to be a woman in america.

Feminism has more than accomplished its goals of equality. Women can do anything they want, yet they also get these benefits: If accused of a crime less likely to be convicted If they hit a man far less likely to be charged with harsh domestic violence laws If convicted, men get 60% longer sentences If another Vietnam happens, women will stay home while men are forced to get killed, get their arms and legs blown off in war. If they have a child out of wedlock they get free money from the government If there is a divorce, they get custody 80% of the time.

The reason men make more money is because on average, they have a higher iq than women (this is scientifically proven), because they have more natural drive than women, and because they have fewer emotional insecurities that prevent them from succeeding in the workplace.

Feminism has achieved equality of opportunity in every regard. Today it is no longer about equality of opportunity, but equality of results. If feminists are going to fight for equal pay, regardless of merit, they should also fight for mandatory longer prison times, and mandatory higher conviction rates just for being women in order to match men. Or if they think things should be decided on relative merit of the individual, then they should quit whining about being women. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses. Find your niche, instead of trying to win at someone else's and then cheating because you came in second and wanted first.

Edit: As for the dogmatic downvoters, why don't you at least present some sort of rebuttal against these facts, instead of a media-ingrained fear downvote?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#216

Post by WalterSear »

EGreg wrote: post #161
ams6110 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal view is that Trump is deliberately trolling the media, and they are taking the bait every time. There's also a "they can dish it out but can't take it" element to it.

I've watched him and I think it is just too hard for him to control himself. He's got the political correctness and factual accuracy version of dyslexia.

IMHO, it's both. He can't help himself, and it works, so he keeps doing it. There's a reason his staff let him twitter.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#217

Post by dang »

johnpython wrote: post #102

SV tech companies are infested with young white brogrammers who only want to work with people who look like them and share their hobbies/interests. They call it "cultural fit" Edit: missed important adjective "white"

Would you please stop posting flamebait to HN? You've done this repeatedly and we ban such accounts. If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; otherwise please don't comment until you do.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14702902 and marked it off-topic.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#218

Post by adventured »

Latty wrote: post #180
adventured wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feminism is not simple as that. I never said it was simple and I fully recognize there are countless gradients of all sorts in feminism. I believe it's unnecessary as a concept. Pursuing and agreeing with the concept of equality nullifies feminism - that is my opinion . It's a very unpopular opinion with the left today. I've been having discussions about feminism for two decades online, there is hardly any conversa…

The definition of feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes" - that is fundamentally compatible with equality. You can claim that's not what feminism today is working towards, but that's simply untrue. Feminism hasn't changed to some kind of anti-male conspiracy, despite the ability for people on the internet to find stupid troll posts or the odd extremist saying "all men…

> You can claim that's not what feminism today is working towards, but that's simply untrue.

You can claim that's the definition of feminism, I believe what you're saying is untrue. I don't believe what you quoted is the definition of feminism - there are more likely almost as many definitions of feminism as there are feminists. I think it's absurd to claim that there is one definition given the rather elaborate diversity of belief on the matter just among feminists.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#219

Post by zzalpha »

te_chris wrote: post #35
sotojuan wrote: post #17

There's an interesting dichotomy on the "women in tech" question between "SV tech" and non-SV tech. I briefly worked at a tech company making oil industry software in .NET in a Houston suburb. Not trendy, cubicles, but they paid fine (and unlike my current job the office was quiet). I quickly noticed that half of my coworkers were not only women, but a lot were people of color and older (I actually think I was the on…

Absolutely. People are rarely willing to talk about class in these discussions, but the reality is that not only have we created an industry with a gender imbalance, we've created an industry with a culture that prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) over everything else. Thus you have 'casual' workplaces with games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc in which some peo…

we've created an industry with a culture that prioritises the values of one class (middle/upper-class urban men) over everything else. Thus you have 'casual' workplaces with games consoles, beer, lame forced socialising, chill zones etc in which some people feel comfortable and others feel thoroughly excluded from.

I disagree. Speaking as someone in that group, I would argue that those things are most valued by freshly minted graduates who've been in the industry for 5 years or less, with few if any commitments outside of work.

i.e., the folks the tech industry exploits by convincing them to work 60-80 hours a week until they burn out. Heck, Google et al even refer to their facilities as "campuses" to appeal to that demographic.

That said, I agree, Silicon Valley has created a culture in that region that values one thing: male youth.

It's why sexual and age discrimination are such a problem in the industry in general, and in that region in particular. It even gave birth to the concept of the "brogrammer", which is the ultimate expression of this ideal.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#220

Post by ams6110 »

Latty wrote: post #108
saiya-jin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree more - coming from former east-bloc european environment where women had to work same as men and there was no racism (simply because there were only white people for last 2000 years on this place), both of what you mention is distant issue (but clearly some other places are/were riddled with it). I already treat women as equal (actually more), same goes to my LBGT friends and colleagues, and same for al…

"Only white people" doesn't mean "no racism". As an Englishman, let me assure you my ancestors managed racism against white Irish people extremely well, and - somewhat ironically - plenty of the less educated people around me today are extremely racist to eastern Europeans (who are supposedly "takin' er jerbs"). Your point is "I don't do racist things, therefore there isn't a problem", which is just not true - there…

Is Irish a race? I'm thinking you mean discrimination.
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