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The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

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Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#281

Post by DanBC »

Hasknewbie wrote: post #250
DanBC wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a link showing that placebo is better than placebo for some types of long term pain. https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/portal/article/4000672/acupun...

Not all meta-studies agree on this. But the real point in my opinion is this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19250001 Acupuncture is a sham because sham acupuncture appears to do just as well. What matters is if you get stung by a real needle. All the acupuncture-specific things, like meridians, points, qi, are just tosh, which means pseudo-acupuncture can be performed by any nurse, and does not require a costly…

This more recent meta analysis shows that acupuncture has a statistically significant difference from sham acupuncture.

You don't have to read the study, this point is made on the page I linked to.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#282

Post by DanBC »

matwood wrote: post #261
DanBC wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're pretty sniffy about the effects of long term pain which can be debilitating, even life threatening. Some people who die by suicide were in long term pain. And here's a large, we'll run, study showing acupuncture is more effective than sham accupuncture https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/portal/article/4000672/acupun...

> And here's a large, we'll run, study showing acupuncture is more effective than sham accupuncture And still not clinically significant.

No, that's wrong.

Read the linked page, acupuncture shows a statistically significant difference to sham acupuncture or to nothing.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#283

Post by randlet »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #185
femto wrote: post #16

I can personally vouch for the effectiveness of a morning routine of 15 minutes of exercise at home, targeting the pelvic muscles. The only equipment required is a floor mat, if the floor is hard. I started gently and naturally progressed to a higher level, taking the attitude that there is no hurry, because I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life, so there is plenty of time to progress. My initial routine…

> I don't mean to be smug, as back pain really is an individual thing. There's an element of searching for what works, and I was lucky in that I was pointed directly towards an effective treatment. I think this is extremely important for everyone to remember. People tend to (correctly) scoff at anecdotal experience, but often that's all you can work with. When studying health problems, most studies will tend to find…

"I should point out that for myself the most effective way to lose weight is basically just starvation. I exercise a lot and track calories and only consume between 1500 and 2000 a day (I probably need at least 2500 a day and maybe closer to 3000)"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point but this is the only effective way to lose weight. If your body needs 2500 calories a day and you eat 2000 you'll lose ~1lb a week.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#284

Post by DanBC »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #275
DanBC wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're pretty sniffy about the effects of long term pain which can be debilitating, even life threatening. Some people who die by suicide were in long term pain. And here's a large, we'll run, study showing acupuncture is more effective than sham accupuncture https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/portal/article/4000672/acupun...

> And here's a large, we'll run, study showing acupuncture is more effective than sham accupuncture For headaches : > Acupuncture is currently recommended for the prevention of chronic headaches, but not for musculoskeletal pain or osteoarthritis pain.

That's the current recommendation. This research shows benefit to musculoskeletal pain. This research will influence future guidance, and the recommendation is that acupuncture is cost-effective, safe, more effective than placebo, provides better quality of life improvements than usual care, and that acupuncture should be available to people with some types of long term pain (including musculo-skeletal).

The first paragraph:

> This NIHR-funded systematic review shows that acupuncture is better than usual care and sham acupuncture for pain from musculoskeletal conditions, knee osteoarthritis and chronic headache.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#285

Post by Cthulhu_ »

blister wrote: post #273

Anecdote of one: I was diagnosed with Stage 4 Hodgkins Lymphoma two years ago. My _only_ symptom at the time was pretty severe back pain, which is unusual for lymphoma. After treatment and remission a year later, I still had the severe back pain. The cancer pain management doctor I was seeing was perfectly happy to keep prescribing godlike levels of opiods. (50+ mg of oxycodone on top of 30+ mg of slow-release morphi…

> As a humorous aside, I had to pay for several weeks of PT out of pocket because my insurance did not consider it important. They would prefer to shell out $500+ dollars every month to see a pain management doctor and continue taking pills.

The insurance provider (or management / shareholders) probably get a kickback from the pharmaceutical industry.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#286

Post by randlet »

sundvor wrote: post #26

I'm a programmer, always at the desk. Back problems came on in my mid/late thirties, as I let my physique go. Once I started squatting in early 40s, back pain has largely subsided. Only reoccurred when I got too optimistic regarding my training, after a break. Have now fixed that by learning to train in moderation / be more consistent - as I get older, there really is no excuse good enough for not going. So yes: Lear…

Same for me (I'm late 30's). Heavy dead lifts, squats and a standing desk. Starting strength training/powerlifting a few years ago was the best thing I ever did for my mental health :)

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#287

Post by fredley »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #21
_delirium wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, the process of thinking through the book's contents itself healed the pain?

This Amazon review is too perfect: After months of intense low back pain, I was recommended this book. I read it and thought it made sense. I know our mind is powerful and stress can cause dis-ease. I completely jumped into his program spite the intense pain I endured. After 6 weeks I did not experience any shift in my pain. And, the pain intensified to the point that sometimes I couldn't even stand. I decided to see…

Having read the book, and done the course, the very first thing it tells you to do is visit a doctor to rule out any physical cause for your symptoms. This person it seems skipped that step.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#288

Post by Cthulhu_ »

beebmam wrote: post #148
taneq wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weight loss isn't "known intractable". Physically it's very simple, if an overweight person is physically prevented from eating too much, they'll lose weight, just like physically it's very simple to quit addictive drugs. And the drug analogy is a good one, because just like quitting drugs, you can't quit overeating (barring the aforementioned option of someone physically preventing you from doing so - which is liter…

It is not physically simple to quit addictive drugs. It depends on the drug. Even alcohol is not simple to quit, depending on the person: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

TIL what the beer brand is based on, thanks for that :p.

(it's a strong beer with a pink elephant logo, very good stuff)

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#289

Post by scient »

mcbobbington wrote: post #49

I think a medical license is a total joke. Now instead of quacks peddling snake oil, we get extremely expensive quacks with diplomas peddling snake oil. My wife has back pain and we paid for a $1000 injection the doctor recommended that did nothing.

And I think people who make these kinds of ridiculous blanket statements are a joke.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#290

Post by Cthulhu_ »

rebuilder wrote: post #241
pif wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Weight loss isn't "known intractable". Indeed, weight loss is "simple", as you said. The problem arises when you have managed to get to your target and you realize that, short of amphetamines or similarly dangerous drugs, there is no known way to keep your weight stable with an acceptable life quality . Obese people are not stupid when they choose to keep eating; they've just learnt by experience that, unless you s…

Regarding the hunger problem - is increasing calorie consumption a viable option? A physically active male with significant muscle mass can fairly reasonably find himself needing about 3000 kcal a day without having to be a pro athlete. Would becoming much more active and gaining lean mass help, or would the amount of food needed to feel sated just increase?

It's viable, but only if you also adjust your diet. Burning 100kcal / day extra from being buff doesn't do much if you're also eating 100kcal / day extra.

Plus getting buff costs a lot of effort, it's easier to reduce intake.

But, besides weight loss, anyone should probably do both, especially if bound to a computer; back pain isn't primarily caused by obesity, but also due to under or overdevelopment of certain muscles, posture, movement or lack thereof, etc.

And being on a healthy weight whilst still being weak or low in energy is no fun.

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