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Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

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Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#111

Post by jbmorgado »

maxsilver wrote: post #98
nradov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If electric cars are so simple, why is the Tesla Model S so unreliable? https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-S/reliability-1095 Conversely, the Toyota Prius is one of the most reliable cars. Yet it is mechanically complex with both an internal combustion engine and an electric motor, plus a CVT. So clearly engineering skill and manufacturing quality are bigger factors than the drive train.

Because (personal opinion) the Tesla Model S isn't a particularly great car. Their success is largely in marketing, network, and visual appeal, not in the product itself. If you pick a better (albeit less appealing) electric car, the reliability rate skyrockets. For instance, using your own source -- https://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF-vs-Tesla-Model-S-relia...

What I found the most interesting in that comparison is that the Tesla, although having a lot more problems in other areas, had 0% issues in brakes and suspension.

Are they using some different much more advanced technology for those parts, or it's just some problem with the repair data?

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#112

Post by dsfyu404ed »

Siecje wrote: post #109
arethuza wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How unreliable are ICEs these days - maybe its just me, but I've never had an engine problem in nearly 20 years of owning cars. Electrical problems, suspension problems, drainage problems - had all of them but never had a problem with the actual engine.

What is a drainage problem?

It's when you realize your OEM sunroof leaks just like an '70s aftermarket sunroof but there is a drain that keeps you from noticing. Or there was a drain, now it's full of dirt and debris and doesn't drain very well.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#113

Post by jdcarr »

jbmorgado wrote: post #111
maxsilver wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because (personal opinion) the Tesla Model S isn't a particularly great car. Their success is largely in marketing, network, and visual appeal, not in the product itself. If you pick a better (albeit less appealing) electric car, the reliability rate skyrockets. For instance, using your own source -- https://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF-vs-Tesla-Model-S-relia...

What I found the most interesting in that comparison is that the Tesla, although having a lot more problems in other areas, had 0% issues in brakes and suspension. Are they using some different much more advanced technology for those parts, or it's just some problem with the repair data?

I can only speak for the brakes. Teslas use regenerative braking on the motor before falling back to traditional frictional brake pads as I understand it. Essentially the motor is put in reverse and that drains off speed. That means less wear on the brakes and so they last much, much longer than an ICE car.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#114

Post by mcv »

gambiting wrote: post #75
jondubois wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a lot of people wanted to own a Tesla so badly that they were willing to stretch their finances to get it. Tesla has had a lot of hype, it can have that effect on people. In some European countries, there are Taxi drivers who drive Teslas (often for economical reasons). Now these people can own a Tesla without hurting their bank account. I think that there is a reason why car brands are either luxury or mass ma…

I live in UK and I see loads of Teslas as taxis, which is almost unthinkable considering the cost of the car - and I don't mean luxury taxis, I mean it's common to see a normal curb-side taxi as a tesla. I suspect the fact that it's extremely cheap to run and tax balances off very high leasing cost and makes it worth it. I imagine nearly 100% of those sales will turn into Model 3s as soon as it's available.

Tesla taxis are all over Amsterdam too. Mercedes used to the the standard for taxis here, but now Tesla seems to be taking over.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#115

Post by calafrax »

Munkum wrote: post #62

There is no way on god's earth that Tesla can ramp up production like that. I suspect the first cars that they sell will roll off the VP tools and not off the main lines anyway. With a lack of product maturation the quality of the first cars will be appalling too. I'd bet that the guys at the coal face are wanting to kill their PR people right now for making promises that they know will get broken. Disclosure: work i…

I would have more confidence in this announcement if it was not made a day before Tesla announced that they are experiencing falling demand for their existing line and barely hit the bottom of their production forecast.

Their initial "hand over" is to employees, not real customers, so it is really just internal testing and does not indicate anything about when actual deliveries will begin.

Hitting delivery deadlines is actually worse than missing them if you are hitting them by pushing an unfinished product which is losing tons of money per unit due to inefficient production processes and creating huge future liabilities for warranty repairs, recalls, and negligence lawsuits if someone gets injured by a defect.

There is a reason why Goldman is revising their price target down on this news and their target is half the current stock price.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#116

Post by chc »

Munkum wrote: post #87
taneq wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect the first cars that they sell will roll off the VP tools and not off the main lines anyway. There a story a couple of months ago about the fact that they've saved a lot of time by going straight to the main production lines rather than building a testing line first? Is this a good plan? Time will tell but I'm sure glad I'm not involved. :S Sources: http://www.newsweek.com/tesla-skips-traditional-manufactu…

No, this is not a good plan at all, it's incredibly risky. To get the car all road legal it needs to be crash tested - that is usually what the pre-volume builds are used for. If they fail (and they sometimes do, because you can't do a finite element analysis on an assembly as complex as a car in the variety of scenarios that you would crash test it) then you need to reengineer the car. This usually means panel gauge…

Aren't we already past that point, though? This seems a bit like worrying that the horses might bolt today because the barn door was left open yesterday.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#117

Post by mcv »

cjrp wrote: post #58
jondubois wrote: post #48

I wonder if Tesla is worried that this new model might cannibalize its more expensive, more profitable model S? Also, I should think that the level of automation required to produce a mass market car on the scale necessary to be profitable would be insane... And I bet Toyota, GM and all the others have patents on many, if not all of these production automation technologies.

> I wonder if Tesla is worried that this new model might cannibalize its more expensive, more profitable model S? Obligatory "If you don't cannibalise yourself, someone else will" Steve Jobs quote! I see them aimed at different markets though; I could never justify buying a Model S, but a Model 3 is definitely feasible (especially in the UK where petrol prices are high).

We only buy cars second hand (I think we paid €11k for our Prius), so I'm afraid we've got to wait a bit longer.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#118

Post by rubidium »

Siecje wrote: post #109
arethuza wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How unreliable are ICEs these days - maybe its just me, but I've never had an engine problem in nearly 20 years of owning cars. Electrical problems, suspension problems, drainage problems - had all of them but never had a problem with the actual engine.

What is a drainage problem?

Window and trunk leaks

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#119

Post by arethuza »

Siecje wrote: post #109
arethuza wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How unreliable are ICEs these days - maybe its just me, but I've never had an engine problem in nearly 20 years of owning cars. Electrical problems, suspension problems, drainage problems - had all of them but never had a problem with the actual engine.

What is a drainage problem?

I had a Passat a few years back and it had a design flaw where the tray that holds the battery has drain holes that can get blocked and if they do it overflows into the interior of the car.

I used to park my car under trees that dropped leaves which blocked the battery compartment drainage holes and as I am in Scotland it can get quite wet. Ended up with car filled with 1" of water.... Interior of car had to be stripped, dried out and put back in by the dealer.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#120

Post by chiph »

arethuza wrote: post #86
nradov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If electric cars are so simple, why is the Tesla Model S so unreliable? https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-S/reliability-1095 Conversely, the Toyota Prius is one of the most reliable cars. Yet it is mechanically complex with both an internal combustion engine and an electric motor, plus a CVT. So clearly engineering skill and manufacturing quality are bigger factors than the drive train.

How unreliable are ICEs these days - maybe its just me, but I've never had an engine problem in nearly 20 years of owning cars. Electrical problems, suspension problems, drainage problems - had all of them but never had a problem with the actual engine.

The last internal engine problem I had was with a 200cid (3.2 liter) inline six from Ford - the pistons had to be de-carboned after a cross-country drive. This was in 1985, so I blame the 55 mph national speed limit for not letting the engine run harder. Ever since - I just do 5000 mile oil changes and 3 year coolant changes, and all is well. They're really quite reliable these days, even as the complexity has gone up with turbos, direct injection, variable valve timing, and so on.
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