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The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

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Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#251

Had back pain (lower back and neck) for years, mostly I think due to being tall and poor desk posture. I used to spend a lot of money at the chiropractor/osteopath, and while they do give relief I don't see them as a long term solution. That said, I think they can be valuable for acute episodes. What cured my back pain is Yoga. Not overnight, not over a week, but months of adding strength and flexibility to body as a…

Had a similar story. After having kids and carrying them around a lot, coupled with no exercise at all, I had an episode of intense lower back pain. After an xray, any structural problem was discarded, I needed exercise to keep my posture.

I then decided that I need to carry on working on a desk for decades ahead (I'm on early 30s) so I had to tackle the problem.

Was recommended by my daughter's pediatrician to look into Pilates classes. I'm now pain free and results came very early on in practice.

Also, random pain spots that appeared frequently (for instance knee pain while driving) are mostly gone too.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#252
post #16

I can personally vouch for the effectiveness of a morning routine of 15 minutes of exercise at home, targeting the pelvic muscles. The only equipment required is a floor mat, if the floor is hard. I started gently and naturally progressed to a higher level, taking the attitude that there is no hurry, because I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life, so there is plenty of time to progress. My initial routine…

> I don't mean to be smug, as back pain really is an individual thing. There's an element of searching for what works, and I was lucky in that I was pointed directly towards an effective treatment. I think this is extremely important for everyone to remember. People tend to (correctly) scoff at anecdotal experience, but often that's all you can work with. When studying health problems, most studies will tend to find…

>You need to learn to listen to your body.

+1000 for this one!

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with doing exercises is it's not as simple as a pill or a surgery - it's a lifestyle change. Don't want to spam HN with this as I mentioned it earlier, but this is one of the issues we're trying to address with http://MoveWellApp.com - which is basically a personal mobility coach.

Get a dog instead. Unlike a stupid app you can't ignore the animal once you got it. I wouldn't have believed it, but walking the dog has improved my physical and psychological health considerably.

> you can't ignore the animal once you got it

Sadly you can, and many people do.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#254
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constant application of great amounts of willpower against your most basic biological instincts is possible for some individuals, but generally you are really arguing against the dictionary definition [1]. [1] [trak-tuh-buh l] .. easily managed or controlled; docile; yielding:

There's been strong selection, I suspect, for overeating when food is available. Also for focusing utilization on essential stuff when it's limited.

It's not mere availability of food. Obesity rates vary quite widely across OECD countries; the US is at 35%, France/Italy/Spain are at about 5-10%, Korea is below 4%.

Overeating is a stress response for a lot of people, and overeating often occurs among people in high-stress situations. The US is a country that tolerates a very high level of poverty, inequality, and insecurity, and this results in high obesity rates in some sectors. Obesity isn't the same problem for people who shop at Whole Foods and spend hours at the gym on weekends; it's a more severe problem among people who have to work a horrible job 60-80 hours a week to avoid really desperate poverty, live in decrepit housing, spend hours on neglected bus lines, and are physically insecure.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#255

Anyone suffering from back pain who really wants to recover should read Dr. John Sarno's work. Here's a link to his book: https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Back-Pain-Mind-Body-Connectio... I was skeptical at first, but just reading his book and thinking through what he presented healed my lower back pain.

Another Sarno cure checking in. Debilitating "RSI" in wrists/arms and back pain. I tried everything (lots of rest, ergonomic keyboards, cold compresses, NSAIDs, physical therapy), but nothing I did seemed to make any difference. Eventually, after two years of arm pain and half a year of back pain, I read Sarno's book "The Mindbody Prescription". I was very skeptical, but I was desperate. Within a couple of days I felt better, even better after a week, then a month. That was two and a half years ago. Today I have no back pain and I can type all day pain free.

Occasionally I get flare ups where I'll feel a little discomfort in my arms, but reminding me of the lessons within Sarno's books makes it go away within a day at most, and ever since I read Sarno I have never felt that I was in too much pain to work on a computer.

I don't know if Sarno got everything right, but typing this comment without pain proves to me that he is on to something.

Don't suffer for years like I did! If you are interested, I would recommend watching this 20/20 segment with Dr. Sarno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsR4wydiIBI (13m35s). If you search for "RSI" on Hacker News, there are some great threads in which Sarno's theory is discussed.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tension_myositis_syndrome

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#256
For 10 years I had a chronic back pain. It was like burning behind my shoulder blades. I went to doctors, did exercises and massage. No effect. Then I happened to take a Calcium supplement. Pain went away in 30 minutes. Now I am pain-free. Why couldn't the doctors detect my lack of Calcium and recommend a basic supplement in so many years? I think there is a lot of bullshit in how they deal with this kind of issues.

Another supplement that had a huge impact on me is Magnesium. It helps me sleep well, reduces anxiety and chronic fatigue. Also increases libido. It's as if it shaves a decade off my age.

So maybe it was all because of the water I was drinking - too filtered, lacking normal minerals that are found in natural water.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#257
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Weight loss isn't "known intractable". Indeed, weight loss is "simple", as you said. The problem arises when you have managed to get to your target and you realize that, short of amphetamines or similarly dangerous drugs, there is no known way to keep your weight stable with an acceptable life quality . Obese people are not stupid when they choose to keep eating; they've just learnt by experience that, unless you s…

> there is no known way to keep your weight stable with an acceptable life quality. Firstly, why does your weight need to be stable? Personally I tend to go on yearly (maybe biennially) cycles with shifts between 170 and 195 pounds. Basically I force myself to get down in the weight (my weight-loss method is to restrict calories pretty dramatically). After that I will have eating habits that tend to keep me low for a…

I wish people would be less cavalier with throwing around gastric bypass as a general obesity fix. I know many people that have had gastric bypass, and have considered it for myself as an obese man.

You will absolutely lose weight with gastric bypass. Full stop. And usually a ton of weight. Which is good! And the surgical complications have fallen way down over time. Those are the good bits. The BAD bits that aren't emphasized in the literature (and that a poor doctor will gloss over):

1) A lack of focus. Universally the people I know that have had gastric bypass seem to have a greatly reduced ability to concentrate on complex tasks and recall. Its almost like 'pregnancy brain' but for men and women and seems to persist long after the surgery.

2) Gastric issues. Everyone knows that people that have gastric bypass spend a lot of time vomiting after their surgery while they adjust to what kinds, and volumes, of food that their greatly reduced stomach can handle. What isn't discussed is that often times your stomach is reduced to such a point where food gets into your intestinal track partially digested, leading to diarrhea and a host of other digestive issues. Also, depending on where the band is placed there might not be enough 'drop' in your stomach for food to easy make it further into the digestive tract. This can lead to further surgeries and even shortening of the intestine. I don't know about you, but going through the rest of my life fighting explosive diarrhea. I'd rather be obese then run the risk of vomiting and intestinal distress for the rest of my life.

3) A general listlessness. I don't know what the cause of this is but I've observed it in everyone that I know thats had it done but no one as much as my mom. She was quite overweight my entire life, but almost disgustingly energetic and just generally full of life. She rarely got sick, and could work a full day of manual labor with no complaint or sign of slowing. After her surgery she shrank way down lost all of her, for a lack of better word, vim. After the surgery she didn't seem to have the energy or interest in pursuing any of the pursuits that made her get the surgery in the first place.

4) Long term results. Long term results for gastric bypass are not great. Most people will shrink down over the course of a year or two to a low weight and then will start packing the weight back on. Slowly at first but usually more and more rapid as time goes on.

I'm not trying to say that gastric bypass isn't an option for a lot of people-but I wish people (obese and non-obese) would stop looking at it as a cure all. Its at best a staving off. Lack of willpower, deep seated problems with food, and self-esteem are almost always the demons at the bottom of the obese pyramid and until you exorcize them, surgery is going to just paper over your problems.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#258
post #144
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll vouch for the effectiveness of losing 30+kg (65+lb). Which only reduces the back pain problem for overweight people to a known-intractable weight loss problem... :-/

Weight loss isn't "known intractable". Physically it's very simple, if an overweight person is physically prevented from eating too much, they'll lose weight, just like physically it's very simple to quit addictive drugs. And the drug analogy is a good one, because just like quitting drugs, you can't quit overeating (barring the aforementioned option of someone physically preventing you from doing so - which is liter…

This feels only the level of suggesting a person can choose to not be depressed by thinking positive thoughts. Mental issues are 'just choices', yet we aren't sure that free will even exists or if choices can be made. Research on the brain shows it isn't nearly as simple as just choosing to be better. Brain does a great job of tricking us into thinking we have control.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#259
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do half an hour of yoga postures almost every morning. When I don't do them for a few days I get pretty bad back pain and migraines. when I am doing them, no problems at all. Before doing that doctors would give me injections and muscle relaxers all the time. I am pretty sure I either would already had had surgery or would get it at some point if I had followed doctors' advice. The trick is that you have to adjust…

What part of your back? Is there a name or website for the routine you follow?

For me it's the sacro illiac joint. It tends to get misaligned and then I get headaches. A yoga teacher gave me a series of exercises that bring it back into alignment and also strengthen the surrounding muscles.

This is very individual and probably won't work for other people.

In general look at the DVDs by Gary Kraftsov. His stuff is very simple but very effective.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#260
post #135

The thing is, when you've seen one back problem, you've see one back problem. The spine is a maddeningly complex assembly of bone, nerves, cartilage, articular surfaces, vasculature, packed tightly, subjected to immense forces, and articulable is many directions. It is a miracle of evolutionary engineering and a miserable failure. We needed to crawl longer before we stood up and walked as a species. I have been throu…

I'd love some help. How did you find someone who could actually give you some sort of prognosis/diagnoses? Mine just say either "more PT" or "here's some pills." Neither work. My disc is budged and it seems like moving the wrong way will trigger 2-3 days of intense pain and immobility. No one seems to offer any suggestions on how to fix it. Is it fixable? I don't know... P.S. the back pain industry is a sham, but the…

I've been a back pain sufferer for most of my adult life (I'm 45, this started at 20) after being attacked and having my back bent badly backwards (with a knee placed in the small of my back). I know how you feel in terms of wanting help, so here's my (anecdotal!!!) experience.

I'll spare you the full story, but I've tried just about everything - Chiropractor, Osteopath, Yoga, Pilates, Exercise of all sorts, Physio (NHS in the UK), etc. Nothing has really helped - more paper the cracks than fix the wall.

Very little worked, and the pain has increased in frequency and intensity over the past 10 years or so - culminating in a prolapsed L4-L5 disc, and some nasty sciatic pain episodes around 7 years ago. The NHS treatment (pain killers and exercises) didn't help. I did all the exercises they gave me, and they did nothing. They discharged me without any improvement.

Three things HAVE really helped. Firstly, learning Alexander Technique [1] which got rid of the sciatica (and the need for daily pain killers) in a couple of weeks. Much later (in the last 6 months) some really specific exercises targeting the multifidus muscles [2], and reading "The back pain bible" [3] was eye-opening - having a good idea of what's going on in the back helped, and there were some exercises in there which with hindsight did help. I read somewhere (can't find it now) that once you lose the tone in your multifidus muscles, you don't spontaneously regain the tone/strength in them; other muscles cover for them and then you're in trouble.

At the end of last year I was at my wits' end - pain all day every day, no-one understanding what was going on, and being told by the chief physio of my NHS trust that "this is just how life is now" - despite me being the kind of obsessive person who actually does the exercises I've been set. So I decided to try things for a month and see what helped - some things did, some didn't (including a very expensive piece of mobilisation equipment). And the multifidus exercises (with leg weights) seemed to just 'switch on' the rest of me, allowing me to maintain good posture and protect my spine. I'm definitely not fixed yet, but I'm not in pain all the time - in fact I had a nearly 3 week period without a twinge last month, which was like being on holiday away from the usual hell. I really think the weakness in those muscles is the key to me actually improving for the first time in a decade (they were pitifully weak initially, and I'm sure there will be other areas where that's true). Maybe something that specific could help you?

For context, I'm 6'1 and around 90Kg with a fairly muscly build - I -look- fit and I'm certainly not overweight, but there's more to bad backs than appearances.

Anyway, hope that helps someone.

[1] - http://www.alexandertechnique.com/ [2] - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Multifidus-Back-Pain-Solution-Exerc... [3] - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sarah-Keys-Back-Sufferers-Bible/dp/...

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