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Enough

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Re: Enough

#21

Post by reitanqild »

notenoughdhh wrote: post #8
s_kilk wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> using various flawed arguments Care to offer some counter arguments?

His initial argument is that it's okay to be mediocre because continuous success is just a "paradigm." That much was already clear. His argument falls apart when he tries to justify having enough, since that contradicts his initial argument. If continuous success isn't written in stone, then neither is having enough. Nokia's anecdotal demise isn't a reason to not seek continuous success. In fact, one could use that s…

It's clear that DHH has some bias against success.

Quite on the contrary I and many others think of him as extremely successful:

Profitable since year 2 IIRC

Have built nice products that you can pay for by money (instead of by privacy)

Well known for a certain web framework that 100 000s of developers use and many love.

I'd even go so far as to say he influenced (not shaped though) our entire industry by showing how web development should be done in a world filled with ugliness like: old enterprise Java, old Spring, old Asp.Net webforms, old PHP etc.

Re: Enough

#22

Post by bjpbakker »

sotojuan wrote: post #15
fredley wrote: post #6

This mindset applies to many things besides growth. For example, how much money (as an annual income) is enough for you? Have you ever sat down and reasoned it out? I see many people stuck chasing larger and larger payouts, to the extent it makes them unhappy or even unwell, who never stopped to consider how much money was enough.

This is what I feel when I see people complain that developer salaries have an upper limit in the mid 100s. I mean, I kinda get it, but honestly $100k is more than enough for me, let alone $150k.

I believe that to be not just about earning more money but also more appreciation. People might not be looking for just more money, but as they see their managers making double their salaries while taking credit for people's work, they want more money to feel more appreciated.

Re: Enough

#23

Post by ckastner »

fredley wrote: post #6

This mindset applies to many things besides growth. For example, how much money (as an annual income) is enough for you? Have you ever sat down and reasoned it out? I see many people stuck chasing larger and larger payouts, to the extent it makes them unhappy or even unwell, who never stopped to consider how much money was enough.

According to one theory, people can generally be classified either in people who are satisfied when something is good enough (satisficiers), or people who are driven to maximize every result (maximizers).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing

(Incidentally, the theory was first put forward by Herbert A Simon, who received both a Nobel Prize in Economics and the Turing Award.)

Re: Enough

#25

Post by norswap »

forgottenacc57 wrote: post #17

DHH's writing sort of radiates a sense of superiority.

To you, the Dalai Lama must be the biggest asshole ever.

But I beg to differ, he just tells people that he believes the prevalent zeitgeist is wrong. I don't see that as particularly brave, cowardly, humble, or arrogant. He just says what he means (without, it should be said, taking cheap shots at anyone), as it should be.

Re: Enough

#27

Post by droopyEyelids »

sotojuan wrote: post #15
fredley wrote: post #6

This mindset applies to many things besides growth. For example, how much money (as an annual income) is enough for you? Have you ever sat down and reasoned it out? I see many people stuck chasing larger and larger payouts, to the extent it makes them unhappy or even unwell, who never stopped to consider how much money was enough.

This is what I feel when I see people complain that developer salaries have an upper limit in the mid 100s. I mean, I kinda get it, but honestly $100k is more than enough for me, let alone $150k.

100k is enough to live on, but when you get more than that you start to see the potential of civic engagement, of funding causes you believe in.

And if your work contributes millions of dollars to the company's bottom line, what justice is there in the company giving 99.9% of the surplus of the surplus you generate to upper management's bonus, or the fund that gets inside info on your next quarterly report?

There are ways to spread that money equitably. It's a classist, self defeating belief that a programmer should let her superiors take home the profits of her work.

Re: Enough

#29

Post by sotojuan »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #27
sotojuan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I feel when I see people complain that developer salaries have an upper limit in the mid 100s. I mean, I kinda get it, but honestly $100k is more than enough for me, let alone $150k.

100k is enough to live on, but when you get more than that you start to see the potential of civic engagement, of funding causes you believe in. And if your work contributes millions of dollars to the company's bottom line, what justice is there in the company giving 99.9% of the surplus of the surplus you generate to upper management's bonus, or the fund that gets inside info on your next quarterly report? There are…

I like this argument a lot more than "I want more money". In my experience, programmers sadly do let their superiors walk all over them with regards to salary and work hours.

Re: Enough

#30

Post by fredley »

bjpbakker wrote: post #22
sotojuan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I feel when I see people complain that developer salaries have an upper limit in the mid 100s. I mean, I kinda get it, but honestly $100k is more than enough for me, let alone $150k.

I believe that to be not just about earning more money but also more appreciation. People might not be looking for just more money, but as they see their managers making double their salaries while taking credit for people's work, they want more money to feel more appreciated.

I think some people probably conflate the two without realising. You think your work is just as valuable to the company, if not more valuable than your manager's, and you could very well be right. However, value of your work is only one factor that determines your salary, there are other market forces in play, and it's hard to rationalise about such things.
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