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Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

cherylyeoh.com

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Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#161

Post by otterley »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #94

As the father of three daughters I always cringe a bit when I read things like this. Thanks Cheryl for sharing your story, and men please remember it isn't how you feel about whether or not an action was appropriate or inappropriate, it is how they feel about it.

I think there's more to it than that. When peers proposition each other or express desire to have more than a professional working relationship (and a polite rejection ends the discussion), that's one thing. But a person in a superior position has a different and greater duty, as rejection can have a negative consequence for the other more vulnerable party. That's why many companies' ethics rules forbid, for example, romantic relationships between a supervisor and his/her direct reports.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#162

Post by [deleted] »

DanBC wrote: post #135
toomuchtodo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. The US Justice Department doesn't construe a forced kiss as sexual assault: https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault "Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the…

If you're going to toss out legal language you might want to learn the difference between "battery" (contact happened) and "assault" (no contact required).

[deleted]

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#163

Post by [deleted] »

DanBC wrote: post #135
toomuchtodo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. The US Justice Department doesn't construe a forced kiss as sexual assault: https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault "Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the…

If you're going to toss out legal language you might want to learn the difference between "battery" (contact happened) and "assault" (no contact required).

[deleted]

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#164

Post by mc32 »

khazhoux wrote: post #155

(flagged, whatever0

To an untrained eye, this looks more like an "MO". Maybe it's insecurity, maybe it's inability to relate, maybe he needs something to "relax" him [and target], maybe it's what's worked in the past for him. I don't know him. But it appears that his MO involves getting people to drink alcohol and him laying it down thick [in parlance, "put his moves on"].

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#165

Post by jacquesm »

afeezaziz wrote: post #134
jacquesm wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck as a foreigner in Malaysia approaching the local police to file a complaint for assault based on a forced kiss against another foreigner who happens to be a millionaire. But that doesn't make it right. Note that it is extremely hard to get these cases to go anywhere in the West where you know the law and where the lines tend to be drawn rather sharper than in Asia (unless there is drugs involved).

I do not believe that Malaysian police take a laidback attitude to sexual assault reports sd you have implied here. Even cases of a woman being sexually assaulted by another woman is also taken seriously in Malaysia. I think you need to stop having preconceived ideas about South East Asian countries. They might look similar but they are not.

I invite you to read:

https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/236666.pdf

"Rape and Domestic Violence: Rape, including marital rape, is a criminal offense, as are most forms of domestic violence. The penal code states that rape is punishable by a prison term of up to 20 years and whipping. Marital rape does not have a minimum penalty, but the maximum penalty is five years’ imprisonment. According to women’s groups, an average of 10 women were raped each day; more than half of these women were under 16. A study by All Women’s Action Society found only one in 10 reported rape cases came to court. A report by the Women’s Centre for Change showed that perpetrators were convicted in only 4 to 6 percent of cases. The latest police statistics available showed 2,718 rapes were reported in 2013, of which 52 percent involved girls age 16 and below. Cultural attitudes and a reported lack of sympathy from the largely male police force resulted in many victims not reporting rapes. Many government hospitals had crisis centers where victims of rape and domestic abuse could make reports without going to a police station. NGOs and political parties also cooperated to provide counseling for rape victims. Women’s groups asserted that courts were inconsistent in punishing rapists."

So, how much do you think would happen if a foreigner reported a forced kiss by another foreigner?

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#166

Post by toomuchtodo »

DanBC wrote: post #135
toomuchtodo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. The US Justice Department doesn't construe a forced kiss as sexual assault: https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault "Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the…

If you're going to toss out legal language you might want to learn the difference between "battery" (contact happened) and "assault" (no contact required).

Thanks! I've made a note to dive deeper into the difference between the two, although I think the confusion might be more common:

"Historically, battery and assault were considered separate crimes, with battery requiring that the aggressor physically strike or offensively touch the victim. In that way, a battery was a “completed” assault. Many modern statutes don't bother to distinguish between the two crimes, as evidenced by the fact that the phrase "assault and battery" has become as common as "salt and pepper." These days, statutes often refer to crimes of actual physical violence as assaults.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#167

Post by gexla »

One of the most eye opening experiences I have ever had in the workplace was in a sexual harassment class which was required for a big corp. The instructor laid out the rules, but people in the class had a hard time grasping the logical structure. Two different scenarios which clearly had the same structure would trip people up by swapping out variables. I was never good with math, but I picked up on these structures right way. Maybe the class should have been taught as a philosophy class from the start. It was amazing to me how difficult such an important subject was for people to pick up.

As difficult as sexual harassment is to learn and teach, I imagine most smaller businesses / start-ups don't make much of an attempt, if at all. Obviously HR is lacking. This might be a good place for improvement for a start-up to tackle.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#169

Post by panic »

khazhoux wrote: post #155

(flagged, whatever0

Do you think Dave kept pouring scotch into her glass on accident? He knows society has a tendency to excuse behavior from a drunk person that they'd never accept from someone sober. You're not excusing his behavior directly, but by suggesting that alcohol is relevant to this situation, you're promoting a narrative that abusers love to exploit.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#170

Post by rhizome »

akanet wrote: post #3

Thanks for sharing this. Reading Dave's post the first time, all I could think was "this seems like the most bland, cop-out, vague apology I've ever seen." He didn't list the specifics of what he felt bad about, and the whole thing read like a PR release to get ahead of any potential fallout. Reading the "kudos" from men who thought he was a great guy for coming forward only after years of harassment came to a head w…

Reading the "kudos" from men who thought he was a great guy for coming forward only after years of harassment came to a head was unpleasant

Perhaps cynically, the only conclusion I can derive from this is them thanking him for not lifting the veil too high and revealing how the system has worked with these forces in play. In the absence of this I have to wonder if the SV VC industry is one big missing stair[1].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair

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