Thanks for stepping forward. It takes a lot of courage to come out publicly with such a personal story, especially when the offender is as well-known as Dave McClure.
Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
111–120 of 416 posts
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why was this downvoted? Asking sincerely in an effort to understand and learn.
Because there are tons of apologists in the valley. Men who also harass women like McClure and feel they're entitled to it, especially against women of color.
The overwhelming majority of HN votes don't come from "the valley". And to the extent we have data on this the geographical trend is probably opposite to what you're suggesting.
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#113First question: which PR agency hand-crafted that disingenuous apology on Dave McClure's blog?
Second question: did 500 Startups foot the bill (the allegations are kryptonite to their brand)?
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#114If you invite someone over to your apartment to drink scotch, and then they come on to you, that's not sexual assault. Sexual assault is when someone has sex with another person without their permission.
As a matter of law you are incorrect (at least in the United States). "Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling , and attempted rape." https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault
That's what the DOJ says. But the standards in the individual states, where these cases are certain to be prosecuted if at all, vary wildly. In some, the assault has to involve an intimate body part. In some, the contact has to be (ugh) "penetrative". In some, any form of coerced touching done for sexual arousal will qualify.
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#115What a terrible story. I'm sorry she had to go through that and appreciate her sharing it. I'm curious about the legal aspect of it. "Sexual assault" is a crime, right? The worst repercussions I hear from these stories are maybe a resignation at best. But if this is truly a crime shouldn't it be prosecuted?
Many victims decline to prosecute to avoid the mental toll the process takes, including having to relive their trauma, having their credibility torn to shreds and possibility of the perp being acquitted even in face of compelling evidence. Trying to recover and generally move on with their lives is already hard enough.
It's a classic he said / she said situation. Based on how he isolates the women, this is exactly the scenario he wants. No witnesses and plenty of time and space to wiggle out of his own culpability if it should arise.
His apology speaks volumes about his process
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean, I don't know the guy. Maybe all this lynching is justified, maybe it isn't. But all I can glean from this article is that the woman who wrote it is blowing her interactions with him a bit out of proportion. Mind you, I've experienced my fair share of sexual assault as well. To me, this is just some guy who has no game who came off a bit too strongly. Regardless, he has some learning to do.
> But all I can glean from this article is that the woman who wrote it is blowing her interactions with him a bit out of proportion. Where do you get this from? It read pretty factual and dry to me. It also puts the lie to his statement about that other encounter that he 'misread the situation', there clearly was no misreading the situation here and yet he persisted, twice.
Sorry, this discussion isn't happening. I just noticed my comments got removed. Clearly, my opinions aren't wanted here.
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#117It is unfortunate that these kind of things happen. They shed a bad light on our industry as a whole due to (hopefully a few) rotten apples. Thanks for writing this, takes courage!
Let's stop perpetuating this myth that this is a "few rotten apples". This is a systemic problem in our industry, and we need to all realize this, so that we can start teaching each other what behavior is and is not appropriate in a very clear, concise, and precise manner.
I think it's important to clarify what "our industry" means, though. I think it's a mistake to lump it all into "tech", because that misses some important root causes. I think there are a bunch of different things going on:
1. With respect to VCs preying on female entrepreneurs, this doesn't shock me in the slightest. Wherever you have this huge power imbalance, coupled with large numbers of people who are extremely reluctant to jeopardize their "big break", you will see this kind of abuse. It was/is common in Hollywood, and I think the Catholic Church sex scandals have a ton in common. If you have a situation with that type of power imbalance, unless you have a very detailed and specific process to deal with predators, that kind of abuse will happen. 2. I think what Susan Fowler described re: Uber has a ton to do with the extremely aggressive culture Uber set up. In fact, a lot of the "villains" in Susan's story were, surprisingly, women. I think the tough question is how to you "rein in" that type of aggressive culture when it was so successful for Uber originally. 3. Finally, with regards to how women are treated in general in tech, I think a lot of the unconscious biases people hold, how people react differently to men's ideas vs. women's, need to be discussed more openly and with a goal of making everyone more aware of their own prejudices without fear.
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you tell someone to leave (NOW!) after they indicate they want to sleep in your bedroom when they've been offered the couch and then they forcibly kiss you that is in fact sexual assault, in fact even if none of the former had happened it would still be sexual assault. Force => assault. When someone has sex with another person without their permission it is rape .
I'm by no means a burly red-blooded gentleman, but I can't think of any example from my previous relationships that did not start with either myself or the other making a move which could later have been construed as assault. Of course adding context to all those situations, it's easy to see that I or the recipient would in all probability welcome the advance, and so it is not assault, however the fine line between "…
You're confusing the absence of explicit consent for its explicit denial. Yes means yes, no means no, and starting things up without an explicit conversation is a long and convoluted debate... And what happened here was not that. This was firmly "no means no" territory. Once somebody has asked you to leave, that's a pretty goddamned firm "no".
Yes, there are long and troubling discussions about how so much of sexual advances are silent and how it's hard to discuss consent with those, but this story was way the hell outside of that grey area.
No means no.
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not in any way to defend Dave, but I think it would have been wrong for him to publish specifics as that could cause further distress to the victims involved. But I strongly support them coming forward and telling their own stories. That has value and gives the accusations their proper perspective and gravity. It truly is different to be confronted with the details.
Agreed, it's not an abuser's place to decide for their victim what details are made public. But, the direct apology to a victim should be clear and not place blame on them for how they interpreted a situation, "I'm sorry if you felt X" is the opposite of an apology, it is redirecting blame.
Direct aplogies to victims are addressed to those victims, they do not tend to be written as open letters for the world to read and don't usually attempt to whitewash the situation in which the encounter took place so the perpetrator looks better. If he'd left that part out it would be a lot better, if he left out the self congratulatory bits it would look better still. If that had been the only case then the book could be closed but it appears that that one encounter really was the tip of the proverbial iceberg and I really hope for mr. McClure that there isn't any worse down the line for him because this could end up being both expensive and possible a legal issue. Just this encounter alone would be enough to get him booked in many places.
Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”
#120First question: which PR agency hand-crafted that disingenuous apology on Dave McClure's blog? Second question: did 500 Startups foot the bill (the allegations are kryptonite to their brand)?
I would think a paid professional pr firm would know not to half-ass an apology and would do a better job.