Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France • Hacker News Board

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#291

Post by oblio » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:36 PM UTC

zmb_ wrote: post #175

corford wrote: post #46

It looks great on paper but the devil will be in the detail and how well they execute on the admin/bureaucracy side. If my experience a few years ago with the auto entrepreneur scheme and URSAFF are anything to go by, you'll need a lot of patience, the ability to speak half decent French and a sense of humour if you want to avoid ripping all your hair out :) I love France (have even married one of their citizens!) bu…

> the ability to speak half decent French After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life,…

> which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business

Debatable. I feel that business level fluency/proficiency is easy: limited vocabulary, limited jargon, overall formal tone.

Getting to a conversational level in any kind of social settings, now that's the hard part of any language, in my opinion.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#292

Post by usrusr » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:39 PM UTC

kabdib wrote: post #84

pjmlp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it should be. We don't have people calling themselves engineers just because can type a few lines of code.

I don't have a degree (just 35 years of experience shipping products at companies you have definitely heard of). Some of the best engineers I've worked with haven't had degrees. One guy I know (who will never have to work again) didn't even bother to graduate from high school. A few of them have written papers published in academic journals. There is definitely more than "a few lines of code" involved in their career…

It's a different language. Similar words have different meanings in different parts of the world, simple as that. The American "software engineer" translates to "software developer" in much of continental Europe, even if the locals are sometimes using English words fot that. In Germany, for example, even getting all the fancy certifications will not make you an "Ingenieur“, the term just isn't used for computer science at all. ("Ingenieur“ is shared between disciplines as different as architecture and electrical engineering, but computer science will make you an "Informatiker“)

Btw, when English is borrowing words from other languages they also tend to undergo a significant semantic shift. It's a two way street.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#293

Post by germanier » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:40 PM UTC

RandomBookmarks wrote: post #201

zmb_ wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the ability to speak half decent French After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life,…

Progress in this area is very slow, but there is progress. Example: Some court proceedings in Germany can now be done in English: http://www.fgvw.de/en/news/archive-2015/the-introduction-of-...

"Now" is an overstatement. That proposal was still not debated in parliament (it was officially proposed by the states in 2011 and 2014) and is not close to becoming a law. Until then, no English court cases.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#294

Post by palunon » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:42 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #283

wott wrote: post #79

> I paid $650 for less than half of [600 sq ft] in rural France. No way. Or you came with a baseball hat saying "I am a rich Yankee, please swindle me" on the front and "I like to pay twice the regular price" on the back.

Speaking of Yankees and baseball hats, what is with the French and Yankee ball caps? I see them all over and never any other team. I always expect them to be Americans but they rarely are. Also I vouched for this submission after it was flagged. I don't believe you meant Yankee as a slur, and even if you did, I have better things to do today than be offended.

You may also see LA teams, but less often.

I think it is because the logo looks cool, and american stuff is "cool". It's rarely a support of the team, and some people don't even know it is a team logo...

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#295

Post by graniter » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:45 PM UTC

trgn wrote: post #279

graniter wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually paying French income tax is pretty easy; it's paying US taxes if you are a US citizen working in France that's hard. I'm not sure Americans know that they are taxed on their income wherever they earn it. All other countries only tax your income that you earn in that country. French citizens don't pay income tax on their salary they earn in the US, but the reverse is not true. Not only do Americans have to pa…

It is true that US citizens must file their yearly US tax return, no matter where they live. That is different from the majority of other countries that do not require this from their citizens living abroad. In practice, double taxation - which your comment seem to imply - is not really an issue. A lot of countries - including France - have mutual agreements with the US that exempt foreign income (up to a certain amo…

"up to a certain amount" and if you are using this visa you've got a good chance of exceeding that amount. I do.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#296

Post by aninhumer » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:48 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #198

peteretep wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most UK BScs are 3 years (aren't they?), so Anglophone is misleading

Yes, most but not all, Scotland has 4 year first degrees for courses that would be 3 years in England and Wales (I don't know about NI).

I think it's a little more complicated than that.

As I understand it, at the end of school Scottish students take "Higher" exams, and then can either apply to university then, or continue in school and take "Advanced Higher" exams first. And often people doing the latter can skip the first year of university. (As well as people from the UK with good A-level results.)

So while there's the possibility to do an extra year, I think in practice it's mostly equivalent to the UK system.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#297

Post by ciconia » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:49 PM UTC

As some here have posted disparaging comments about French bureaucracy, I'd like to share my own experience. I've have emigrated to France four years ago with my wife and our two kids. On the whole our experience dealing with the government has been quite positive.

Yes, some stuff feels really backwards, like getting a bank account (it helps a lot if you have a big wad of cash to dangle in front of your banker, you'll get treated differently), the RSI (social security for entrepreneurs) and the CAF (child support) are frustratingly incompetent, but most bureaucrats we dealt with have been quite understanding to our needs and some of them have really gone out of their way to help us.

I think it really depends who you stumble upon, and most of all - if you make an effort to speak French (which is definitely one of the hardest things about emigrating to France) you'll find that in the end it all works out, it just might take some time!

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#298

Post by dottedmag » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:51 PM UTC

d--b wrote: post #230

graniter wrote: post #216

I live and work in France and I am well versed in this type of Visa. It's a very nice arrangement, but it's still France. It's still dealing with the same administrative burdens for everything else. You don't get treated special, you just have a special deal. I've said before that if France wants to attract foreign talent what they need to do is assign someone in the French administration to help workers get establis…

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

Russia->Norway. One visit to police station on arrival, everything else is done for you (by the state, not by the company!)

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#299

Post by arethuza » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:51 PM UTC

aninhumer wrote: post #296

arethuza wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, most but not all, Scotland has 4 year first degrees for courses that would be 3 years in England and Wales (I don't know about NI).

I think it's a little more complicated than that. As I understand it, at the end of school Scottish students take "Higher" exams, and then can either apply to university then, or continue in school and take "Advanced Higher" exams first. And often people doing the latter can skip the first year of university. (As well as people from the UK with good A-level results.) So while there's the possibility to do an extra ye…

I'm from Scotland, went to a Scottish University and have a teenage son who just went through the process...

Highers are taken at the end of 5th year - with the 6th year being used for topping up results if they weren't good enough, acquiring Advanced Highers - which are quite often not really required and going to parties...

Some people go to Uni right after the highers (my wife did this and regretted it) and some go into second year directly with Advanced Highers - but very few people I know do either. Schools certainly recommend against both.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#300

Post by bernardlunn » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 1:05 PM UTC

d--b wrote: post #230

graniter wrote: post #216

I live and work in France and I am well versed in this type of Visa. It's a very nice arrangement, but it's still France. It's still dealing with the same administrative burdens for everything else. You don't get treated special, you just have a special deal. I've said before that if France wants to attract foreign talent what they need to do is assign someone in the French administration to help workers get establis…

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

Echo that. Have moved more than once and all bureaucracies suck and cannot be dismantled overnight. A simple how to guide would make a big difference.