Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France • Hacker News Board

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#271

Post by pyrale » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 11:43 AM UTC

graniter wrote: post #238

d--b wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

I agree that other countries are difficult, too. France moreso I think, but not alone in all of this. Which is why I'm arguing the difficulty in working in or starting a company in France is not money, it's navigating all the administration you need to do. And you won't know all there is to do until you do it. And since the laws change periodically, not even the prefecture will always know. I had immigration lawyers…

Your US taxes should be close to nothing, and filling your french taxes can be done in anything from 2 minutes to a couple hours, depending on how large/complicated your savings are. The only burden there is is with the US asking you to fill in taxes when there's nothing to pay.

I agree that coming without planning to learn a bit of french might be a burden.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#272

Post by jpatte » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 11:44 AM UTC

raitom wrote: post #75

slau wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it's not just that. The quality of life could be argued to be significantly higher than in other places. The job security once you land a decent gig is not something to be discarded. This being said, Macron does plan on making it easier for people to be fired, in order to make it easier for companies to hire. This is a big topic that I could rant for hours about. You do get all-inclusive health care. In add…

I'm French and I moved to San Diego, so.... My health insurance is paid by my company and I don't really care about free education. Yet, after all my bills, groceries for the month and rent (which is around $2k/month) is paid, I still have almost $2k / month in my pocket to do whatever I want. Good luck to have that in France. The quality of life in Southern California is miles ahead from what I could have in France.…

"Good luck to have that in France."

It's not as hard as you seem to think. Earning ~3500 euros/month (net of taxes) is definitely doable as a software developer if you have good skills.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#273

Post by peterunold » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 11:49 AM UTC

zmb_ wrote: post #175

corford wrote: post #46

It looks great on paper but the devil will be in the detail and how well they execute on the admin/bureaucracy side. If my experience a few years ago with the auto entrepreneur scheme and URSAFF are anything to go by, you'll need a lot of patience, the ability to speak half decent French and a sense of humour if you want to avoid ripping all your hair out :) I love France (have even married one of their citizens!) bu…

> the ability to speak half decent French After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life,…

I'm currently somewhat fluent in 3 europeans languages and will soon attend a month long intensive course to beef up my 4th(french). Yes it's a bother but it's also the charm of Europe.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#274

Post by palunon » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 11:56 AM UTC

keganunderwood wrote: post #208

rorykoehler wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should google it for more infos. Here is a quote from the man himself: "If I am elected, France will launch a major initiative beginning this summer targeting the major Internet providers, so that they agree to the legal seizure of data from their encrypted services as part of the fight against terrorism"

Do these politicians know something we don't? Why do they have this seemingly counterproductive viewpoint?

Incompetence.

Or nefarious goals. If you can spy on the opposition, or popular movements, that's good for you when you are in power.

Or they do know things, and we're the ones in the wrong.

Or simply, security theater.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#275

Post by weberc2 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 11:56 AM UTC

biztos wrote: post #174

weberc2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find European culture and history alluring, but I don't think Europe is somehow "more free" than the U.S., in particular, you guys have much more regulation and far greater taxes. Maybe you have a greater quality of life by certain measures, but I think the freedom point is hard to defend. Maybe I'm wrong?

Taxes are not higher everywhere, and where they are higher it's usually because there is really awesome infrastructure and a social safety net and other stuff you would normally want to finance collectively. Compare, say, the homeless situation in Berlin to that in San Francisco... or compare pretty much any bus system anywhere in the developed world to MUNI. One freedom Europeans have is freedom from fear of the pol…

Thanks for your response.

Maybe taxes in California are crater than Croatia, but I would be very surprised if the average tax want much greater in Europe than in the US. Do you have specific places in mind?

I also think fear of police is overblown in the US (maybe I would feel differently if my skin were a different color, but this doesn't appear to have a basis in data), and "freedom from fear of police" isn't really a political freedom (at least in my mind) unless you are referring to police oppressing people for their speech, political affiliations, etc, which clearly is a non-issue in the US. That said, while the odds of being injured or killed by police are many times greater than in Europe, they are still miniscule. It seems analogous to the recently heightened risk of terrorist activity in Europe--many times greater than in the US, but still not a reason to avoid Europe.

I do think Europe is a good value proposition for a lot of people (I've lived there and occasionally consider trying to move back), but I don't think Europeans have more freedom.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#276

Post by Toboe » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 11:58 AM UTC

rockinghigh wrote: post #141

weberc2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find European culture and history alluring, but I don't think Europe is somehow "more free" than the U.S., in particular, you guys have much more regulation and far greater taxes. Maybe you have a greater quality of life by certain measures, but I think the freedom point is hard to defend. Maybe I'm wrong?

What freedoms do you think are missing in Europe? Owning a gun? Taxes are higher because they include health insurance, free education, retirement benefits and unemployment insurance.

Note: You can have guns in Europe (details differ per country) Just without the "Any guncontrol is an attack on freedom!" side of the debate.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/World_ma...

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#277

Post by rguillebert » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:02 PM UTC

thbt wrote: post #231

grp wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll need to go to Paris for a medical check that you can do your job. All French employees must do this. And you have to do it every two years. Pee in a cup. Undress over there. Is it a joke? Never heard of that in 30 years..

I work in tech in France and in my personal experience, this is fake. You do have to get a medical exam upon employment but that's it. You'll have to get your shirt off for a heart exam. But it doesn't have to be in Paris, no peeing in a cup, and you won't have to do it every 2 years.

I used to work in tech in France (now I'm in the UK) and I had to pee in a cup, so YMMV I guess.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#278

Post by corford » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:07 PM UTC

kakwa_ wrote: post #127

corford wrote: post #46

It looks great on paper but the devil will be in the detail and how well they execute on the admin/bureaucracy side. If my experience a few years ago with the auto entrepreneur scheme and URSAFF are anything to go by, you'll need a lot of patience, the ability to speak half decent French and a sense of humour if you want to avoid ripping all your hair out :) I love France (have even married one of their citizens!) bu…

You should change bank ^^. Personally, I've moved two times and I didn't have to do the close/open/cheque stuff. And the direct debit authorization I've since before the first move keep working. As for cheques, It's very rarely used, I still use the first chequebook I was given when I opened my bank account more than 10 years ago. I've never experienced the "pay by cheque" at the super market since I was a child. Che…

I don't live in France anymore and don't have the accounts but they were big banks: Credit Agricole and Caisse D'Epargne. I've heard similar stories with Banque Populaire too.

As for cheque usage, 4 years ago (when I was there) loads of people were still using them (young and old). This is in central and south France (no idea about Paris, never lived there).

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#279

Post by trgn » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:07 PM UTC

graniter wrote: post #247

realusername wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While France isn't the best country in the world for easily paying your taxes, it's clearly much better than the US if it's what you are afraid of.

Actually paying French income tax is pretty easy; it's paying US taxes if you are a US citizen working in France that's hard. I'm not sure Americans know that they are taxed on their income wherever they earn it. All other countries only tax your income that you earn in that country. French citizens don't pay income tax on their salary they earn in the US, but the reverse is not true. Not only do Americans have to pa…

It is true that US citizens must file their yearly US tax return, no matter where they live. That is different from the majority of other countries that do not require this from their citizens living abroad.

In practice, double taxation - which your comment seem to imply - is not really an issue. A lot of countries - including France - have mutual agreements with the US that exempt foreign income (up to a certain amount) from being taxed twice.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#280

Post by beisner » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:09 PM UTC

ghgr wrote: post #214

zmb_ wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the ability to speak half decent French After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life,…

> What is needed is a joint common language Great! I propose Spanish, being the second most spoken language by number of native speakers (behind Chinese), and given the relevance of Spain through history in Europe. (this comment was only half joking. It's easy to impose a global language when it's yours, but you see, it's a different story when you need to learn a different one).

Although, if we're realistically considering the present situation, the number of people who already speak English as either a native or non-native language are roughly even with the number that speak Mandarin, and far exceed that number for Spanish-speakers. Only looking at Europe, this still holds. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_num...