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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#371

Post by edanm »

daenz wrote: post #24

Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he's compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation ("I'm such a creep. Please forgive me, world.") feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.

It was a bit over the top.

But, I really appreciate it. In many situations, as you can see from other threads here, there is doubt in a lot of people's minds whether there's really a story here, whether the person was wrongly accused, whether it's as bad as people make it out to be, etc.

In this case, he's making it clear that, yes, he really was the wrong party and really did wrong things. I think we should take his statement at face value, and be thankful we have an example of a clear-cut wrong, so anybody who is unsure just how bad the harassment situation really is can point to this as an example.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#372

Post by taurath »

throwaway05285 wrote: post #330
criddell wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be If you are in a position of power over another person, I would say there isn't an appropriate time. The number of hours you work isn't really relevant. Put it this way: when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date?

If you make more money than another person or can possibly benefit them in some way or the person is attracted to you then you are in a position of power. You're argument is absurd and out of touch with the human nature.

This is a troll comment, right? I'm can't really tell anymore (sign of the times).

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#373

Post by taurath »

saghm wrote: post #206
taurath wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting? What would be the difference? Why wouldn't it be the exact same as water cooler talk?

> How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting? I'm very confused by this question. My view of whether someone is a person is not mitigated by them acting profession.

By "seeing them as people" I meant to show their personal, as in non professional side. I used the wording of the parents to try to show how it's a bit absurd to think that the lines aren't blurred.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#374

Post by pvaldes »

saghm wrote: post #215
pvaldes wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This cut both ways. Power inbalance has the problem that sex is a extremely common strategy for gaining power in human societies. Predators can take any side on the relationship.

All the more reason not to engage (or attempt to initiate) a sexual or romantic relationship with a subordinate or superior.

Well, the problem is that then all we would have is a closed caste system, that is a very undesirable situation in itself and much worse.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#375

Post by kd5bjo »

sangnoir wrote: post #360
Latty wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or he realized he has done something wrong and wants to be clear that's not who he wants to be? I was out drinking with friends from my University course, back in the day, and made some statement like "uh, well don't be fags about it" - a hangover from my days at a boys only secondary school where "gay" was the most common term for bad and "fag" was the most common insult. Now, I have no issues with people's sexualit…

> How I acted didn't represent my views, it isn't who I want to be, and it's not how I'd want to interact with anyone. I'm sorry, but this does not make sense to me. Of course what you said and how you acted represented your views at the time. It wasn't who you wanted to be , but it was who you were . You absolutely used the term fag as an insult and you meant it. I'm posting this not to judge you or be self-righteou…

In an emotionally-charged situation, it's easy to forget that curse words have an actual meaning other than being an insult. In the situation where your views on what's acceptable have changed, like Latty described, you can slip into old verbal habits pretty easily without realizing it.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#376

Post by [deleted] »

edanm wrote: post #370
alexandercrohde wrote: post #194

A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…

Another perspective - the reason some of the situations above are inappropriate is not about the impact on you. Rather, it's because some of the examples are situations where you are forced by law to interact with those people, and have no alternative. From my "libertarian" perspective, the situation with the police officer, judge at a trial, the teacher, and probably the doctor are clearly the most offensive, becaus…

[deleted]

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#377

Post by aluhut »

Frondo wrote: post #171
aluhut wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dangerous ground. I would expect contra in form of "mansplaining" or "justification of harassment". I came to the conclusion that the topic has become too toxic to be discussed seriously. Especially based on a actual case. I just hope this electrified field will return to a base where everybody can talk seriously about it. With the aim being a solution that is appropriate to what we are as humans not as man or woman…

I would suggest you take steps to strengthen your relationships with the women in your life, so that you can discuss these things with them and they'll know you're genuine in asking about what is appropriate, etc. I can think of several women I would have zero problem discussing this stuff with, just because they know I'm not out to stir shit up or play devil's advocate. There's trust there to begin with, so there's…

I've found this topic to be toxic only on the internet. Never had this issue in real life. Maybe because I'm not from the US.

However, reading that you had no problem discussing this stuff because you would not "stir shit up or play devils advocate", I'd say you had no discussion at all in the first place.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#378

Post by JadeNB »

JadeNB wrote: post #154
tanderson92 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date? A student generally or one of his students? There is a difference. And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon.

> And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon. There are a lot of things that are not uncommon, but are still totally inappropriate.

> > And not too long ago a professor dating a student that he/she didn't have power over was not that uncommon.

> There are a lot of things that are not uncommon, but are still totally inappropriate.

Sorry! I was responding late at night, and, even though I quoted it, I totally missed tanderson92 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14680337) 's caveat "that he/she didn't have power over", which, of course, totally changes the ethics.

(It still doesn't seem persuasive to me to argue the ethics of a behaviour in terms of what used to be common, since it is still true that a lot of awful things used to be, and still are, common; but my comment was mostly based on a misinterpretation.)

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#379

Post by escapetech »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #269
escapetech wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not necessarily about power imbalances - subordinates might express interest in a superior, or a colleague might interest in another colleague, and both situations can be just as problematic as a superior expressing interest in a subordinate. The problem is simply one person deciding to single out another person for any deviation of expected treatment especially when it has no relation to the social context or w…

I don't think dating coworkers is wrong. I think making somebody uncomfortable with clumsy/forceful/persistent advances can be bad though. But let's say you like somebody at work, so you talk to them, and you both enjoy the conversation. Then you eat lunch together at work a few times. Then you invite them to get drinks after work as a group. Then you continue to hang out when the rest of the group has gone home. The…

You personally may think dating coworkers is fine under some circumstances, and so may the other person potentially involved, but others not involved and observing may find it unacceptable under any circumstance. One goal of the workplace is to ensure equal treatment and equal protection to all of its workers under any and all circumstances.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#380

Post by escapetech »

noobermin wrote: post #282
woofyman wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with dating a coworker is that when they break up with you, you have to see them everyday.

That is more a life and operational issue, not a legal/abuse/harassment issue, to be fair.

Actually a breakup can turn into any one of those situations. One person can begin spreading rumors and propagating lies about the other person, or begin leaving harassing messages. Workplace morale can be severely affected. Co-workers lives can literally be in danger because of how one person in a workplace romance interprets behaviors.

You really have to understand the perspective of a company to know why any form of singling out an employee for any type of reason, including dating or romance, is a potential legal landmine.

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