Earlier quoted context omitted.
In what way is OP 'part of the problem'? If the other party wishes to also pursue a romantic relationship - what's the problem?
I can't speak for OP, but let me ask you this. Suppose your sister is in the back of a police vehicle, on her way to jail. Would you rather the cop who is driving that vehicle be told A) It's okay to flirt with suspects/criminals if they are into you B) It's never okay to flirt with suspects/criminals and you will lose your job if you do ?
I'm a creep. I'm sorry
361–370 of 453 posts
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#362Its interesting to think about what this would be like if the roles were reversed. The VC was female, and the applicant was male.
As a male in this situation I see this as completely neutral, even positive. If the founder likes me, then I have more chance of getting a highly sought after role which I might not have otherwise - as no company really hires solely on merit anyway. As a male, if there is a female HR contact, I would always welcome them flirting with me, as it only increases my chances of getting the job by giving me points when there are subjective evaluations required.
If I was single and interested in this female VC its a clear opening for a date. If I am attracted to her, I could have a date. If not, I could just laugh it off and say I'm already seeing someone. Life moves on.
Now if I push back an advance, they might get petty and decide to not hire me as some kind of revenge, or otherwise, they may be more likely to hire me because they want me around.
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Now, obviously this is not a 1-1 analogous situation because of the world as it is today. Some notable differences...
- There are more male VCs than females. - There are probably less female applicants for such positions. - Males are the physically stronger sex. - Males are more likely to make advances than females (is this true?).
So I am interested in which of these above variables must be inverted to change my reaction. I need to think more on it.
But an interesting aspect is that, perhaps males think like this, and therefore think its okay. I am guessing that its the other gender imbalance variables that make this not applicable vise-versa, which is harder for males to play out in their mind.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#363A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…
It's not necessarily about power imbalances - subordinates might express interest in a superior, or a colleague might interest in another colleague, and both situations can be just as problematic as a superior expressing interest in a subordinate. The problem is simply one person deciding to single out another person for any deviation of expected treatment especially when it has no relation to the social context or w…
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Its only a problem if the other party is not into you, You're part of the problem.
This is a useless reply, and it has become pervasive. Technically anyone not a part of the solution is part of the problem. Instead maybe clarify on what you find objectionable to help everyone out, including parent.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Do you send just one job application when you're trying to find a new job? No, but if it's a lucrative job that I really want to work at, then the hiring manager definitely has power over me. >That assumes that transaction is somehow not mutually beneficial. It is mutually beneficial, but you're probably looking at a 30:1 (or higher) benefit ratio here, in his favor. > In the end, she's the one that has power over h…
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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
In what way is OP 'part of the problem'? If the other party wishes to also pursue a romantic relationship - what's the problem?
I can't speak for OP, but let me ask you this. Suppose your sister is in the back of a police vehicle, on her way to jail. Would you rather the cop who is driving that vehicle be told A) It's okay to flirt with suspects/criminals if they are into you B) It's never okay to flirt with suspects/criminals and you will lose your job if you do ?
If she is a suspect, then she would feel pressured to go along with the police's advances, because of the risk of retaliation for knocking back advances. So, B.
But for the victim of your sister's crime, she will want justice to be served, and will definitely go for B.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#367> During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.” Its interesting to think about what this would be like if the roles were reversed. The VC was female, and the applicant was male. As a male in this situation I see this as completely neutral, even positive. If t…
> Now if I push back an advance, they might get petty and decide to not hire me as some kind of revenge
I think this is precisely the reason that it's inappropriate, regardless of gender. Even if you (as a hypothetical VC) aren't going to be petty (and let's be honest, emotions are complicated and keeping feelings out of a decision is hard), you've put out the idea that your advances are somehow related to the recruitment process. This will totally make someone uncomfortable, especially when they're probably already sweating about the recruiting process.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
The culture of being being mad at sexual harassment offenders even when they apologize is what is toxic in the tech community. ok
Sexual harrasment? What he did was unethical, immoral and objectively wrong, sexual harrasment is a crime. This wasn't a crime. I'm sure, as a perfect individual you've never done anything unethical or immoral. As such, your "never forgive" attitude is perfectly justifiable.
Where can I find a list of "objectively wrong" things, and is there some kind of formal process to challenge them?
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#369> During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.” Its interesting to think about what this would be like if the roles were reversed. The VC was female, and the applicant was male. As a male in this situation I see this as completely neutral, even positive. If t…
I'm not sure I totally agree with your comments. In particular: > Now if I push back an advance, they might get petty and decide to not hire me as some kind of revenge I think this is precisely the reason that it's inappropriate, regardless of gender. Even if you (as a hypothetical VC) aren't going to be petty (and let's be honest, emotions are complicated and keeping feelings out of a decision is hard), you've put o…
But from a male perspective (in the hypothetical above), I don't see it at all. I only see it as positive, and I think most males would feel the same. If there were repeated advances, then it would get a bit frustrating. And if I didn't get the job after knocking back repeated advances, then I would definitely see who I could contact about it.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#370A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…
Rather, it's because some of the examples are situations where you are forced by law to interact with those people, and have no alternative.
From my "libertarian" perspective, the situation with the police officer, judge at a trial, the teacher, and probably the doctor are clearly the most offensive, because the state gives them tons of power over me without me being able to get out of it. (The doctor situation is kind of dependent on how healthcare works in your country).
The other examples are less clear cut. A waiter hitting on someone - no problem IMO (usual caveat here - it's still bad if persistent after rejection, done with pressure, etc). At work with co-workers - generally ok assuming it's done in a non-pressuring way, and there's no power imbalance (which wouldn't make it not-ok necessarily, again, depends on the situation). Car dealer - no problem.