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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#231

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest?…

Of course there is: "Hey, I'm interested in you. Would you like to go out on a date sometime?" If they say yes, great, plan a date. If they say no, respond with "Ok, that's cool." Then continue to act the same way towards them you did before.

There's a lot of moaning here about how any interaction with a potential partner is an arrest waiting to happen, but the underlying sentiment to that is that everyone else is a vengeful harpy waiting to crucify you. It's an endless nice-guy support group meeting. When you read the articles about Mcclure and Sacco and others, though, you see common things: they're hitting on women coming to them for professional consideration, which necessarily involves a power imbalance; and their requests aren't to go on a date, they're "let's fuck" (i.e., they're inappropriate in most circumstances). You wouldn't ask a girl you met through mutual friends to just go to bed, you'd say "let's get dinner and drinks". But the creep behaviour here is creep behaviour almost everywhere, with an added dose of "I can make or break your career, so choose your answer carefully."

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#232
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. All these guys who claim they are so smart and well rounded now all of a sudden are doing "I'm Sorry" posts as if they didn't know. WTF - of course they all were aware. Its easy acting all matter of fact and smart with everything else and then "I'm Sorry". Refer them to a public prosecutor because examples are needed for this to stop. We need some examples to be made.

This post is a perfect example of what I've mentioned elsewhere. If you ever find yourself in this person's shoes (innocent or guilty) you have nothing to gain by this sort of public display of remorse/sepukku as others have called it. This type of angry, vitriolic, hate-filled-person will condemn you no matter if your apologies are sincere or not. The only logical move is to deny, people like the poster above will n…

You had me until 'leftism'. Could you further elaborate on this point?

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#233
post #80
post #24

Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he's compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation ("I'm such a creep. Please forgive me, world.") feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.

Come on. All these guys who claim they are so smart and well rounded now all of a sudden are doing "I'm Sorry" posts as if they didn't know. WTF - of course they all were aware. Its easy acting all matter of fact and smart with everything else and then "I'm Sorry". Refer them to a public prosecutor because examples are needed for this to stop. We need some examples to be made.

>Refer them to a public prosecutor because examples are needed for this to stop. We need some examples to be made.

Setting aside the fact there's nothing to prosecute in most of the cases, I'm curious why you think making examples of people is more important than punishing them in proportion to their offenses.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't shit where you eat is a sensible, safe rule to live by; ymmv.

I wonder about people like you. Do you live in the real world, and interact with real people? Do you have real friends? Because it doesn't sound like it. Not dating your coworkers is a sensible rule that some people follow and some companies may have policies around ... but a rule you have no hope in expecting to be universally adhered to. Case in point: The sheer number of (happy and unhappy) couples who met at work…

I've worked with plenty of workplace couples, I'm not casting aspersions on them. It can and does work out great for many. I just personally believe in separating work and life. Sorry for the un-nuanced answer.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#235

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest?…

I'd advise to never interact with co-workers beyond day to day work interactions. It's just not worth the risk in a society hell-bent on being offended and convicting others of wrong-think. I'm not speaking about actions that are objectively illegal.

Get off your cross, we need to the wood. Lots of people, including in the tech industry, manage to interact with potential romantic partners both romantically and professionally, without triggering lawsuits or tearful Medium apologies. They do it by being mature, considerate, and respectful, and accepting of any outcome, without consequence. If you see the gross behaviour of Sacco et al and think "OMG I'm next!" then that's on you, not the prevailing culture.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#236
post #185
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People lose their job for all sorts of reasons, no crime necessary. If you're going to worry about people losing their jobs, why don't we start by talking about everyone laid off at Etsy, and importantly, the college kids who were informed two weeks before their internship started that no such internship existed any more? As for career and public shame: he's had a wildly successful career and significant public prais…

i.e. 'if they are powerful, nothing done to them can be called injustice' progressive.

I think it's more that on the scale of how injust something can be, this just doesn't seem up there enough to be worth getting upset over.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#237
post #220

A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…

Its only a problem if the other party is not into you, figuring out the ends sorts out the means. There have also been instances where the other party recoils and indicts the proposal. It is the reality of life even though some might disagree. Nonetheless, workplace relationship is emotionally dicey and avoiding it is a safer bet.

> Its only a problem if the other party is not into you,

You're part of the problem.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post is a perfect example of what I've mentioned elsewhere. If you ever find yourself in this person's shoes (innocent or guilty) you have nothing to gain by this sort of public display of remorse/sepukku as others have called it. This type of angry, vitriolic, hate-filled-person will condemn you no matter if your apologies are sincere or not. The only logical move is to deny, people like the poster above will n…

You had me until 'leftism'. Could you further elaborate on this point?

I second this. It was a compelling argument until self-sabotage via way of injecting politics.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#239

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest?…

There are very specific definitions of sexual harassment. Asking a coworker out once when neither of you is in the other's chain of command isn't anywhere near that. If you believe that the word no means 'try again tomorrow', feel like part of asking out is to mention that there will be negative consequences for saying no, or work-related advantages for saying yes, and ignore others when they tell you your behavior is making them uncomfortable, then you are going in the road towards harassment.

Let's be realistic about harassment: While seeing something like this triggers fear that suddenly innocent behavior will lead to harassment calls, in practice, your typical male engineer will get away with habitual misbehavior: An employer will only get involved if the behavior at least comes close to qualify as harassment and is well documented. One has to be quite clueless to get anywhere near that level accidentally.

We can be afraid, but that doesn't make the fear well founded. The cases that we see in the media involve systemic, repeated misbehavior from people in situations of power, not a random IC that asks a woman engineer out politely when she isn't interested. Asking your coworkers out is fine.

A good antidote to the fears is to just listen to women talk about what they deal with. There's plenty of articles out there, and heck, even tweet storms form well known women engineers, explaining the kind of shitty behavior they are exposed to every day. It will show you how there's an abyss between what you think is OK and what they have to put up with.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder about people like you. Do you live in the real world, and interact with real people? Do you have real friends? Because it doesn't sound like it. Not dating your coworkers is a sensible rule that some people follow and some companies may have policies around ... but a rule you have no hope in expecting to be universally adhered to. Case in point: The sheer number of (happy and unhappy) couples who met at work…

I've worked with plenty of workplace couples, I'm not casting aspersions on them. It can and does work out great for many. I just personally believe in separating work and life. Sorry for the un-nuanced answer.

Yeah, some nuance is lost when you label everyone who asks a co-worker out on a date a 'sexual harasser'.
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