I'm a creep. I'm sorry • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#201

Post by noahth » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:26 AM UTC

theWatcher37 wrote: post #164

noahth wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're working 12 hour days and having trouble with your social life, the problem is _not_ that it's not OK to hit on women in a professional setting. The problem is that you're working too much.

Stop bringing gender in to this. You can ask someone out during an after-hours social event without it being wrong. What's wrong is retaliation based on those things happening.

If you think I'm the one who brought gender into this, you're either ignorant to the structural realities of our industry, or you're willfully being obtuse. If it's the former, let me be the first to tell you that men have most of the power and it's no accident that in the story this post reacts to, it's the men in power committing the abuse and not the other way around. Not to say that women can't be inappropriate at work or whatever, but if you're looking to promote equality, "both sides do bad things" is not the right way to do it in this case.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#202

Post by macspoofing » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:27 AM UTC

pjzedalis wrote: post #123

He completely misses the forests from the trees. Had the woman been hired she would have been denied by him the satisfaction of knowing she earned the position through her hard work, intelligence, and capabilities. He also does not seem to recognize why he is a creep. Ultimately we find people creepy when they portray themselves and their motives one way and yet secretly or covertly act another. I recommend therapy s…

>Had the woman been hired she would have been denied by him the satisfaction of knowing she earned the position through her hard work, intelligence, and capabilities.

Meh. People get hired for bad, or unfair reasons all the time. Nobody cares about that. If that wasn't the case referrals and affirmative action wouldn't be allowed. The reality is that reasons for getting hired aren't as important as being competent in the job you were hired for.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#203

Post by nulldev » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:31 AM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #156

hendzen wrote: post #142

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest?…

I think asking coworkers out is a huge no-no. If the only people in your orbit you feel you can connect with that way are at work, that's a sign your personal life needs some development. However, let's say you have a robust personal life, and you just have this absolutely amazing co-worker, who totally is not your subordinate, and ideally you don't even work directly with, and you want to ask them out... again.. I d…

This is an interesting blend of rigid paranoia and moralistic finger wagging.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#204

Post by ryanSrich » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:31 AM UTC

hendzen wrote: post #142

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest?…

I'd advise to never interact with co-workers beyond day to day work interactions. It's just not worth the risk in a society hell-bent on being offended and convicting others of wrong-think. I'm not speaking about actions that are objectively illegal.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#205

Post by stfp » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:34 AM UTC

hendzen wrote: post #142

Caveat, McClure's behavior was bad. But seeing recent public floggings for misbehavior I now wonder if people are feeling a bit hypersensitive/cautious about any workplace conduct that could potentially be perceived as harassment. Case in point. You work at a technology company. You are attracted to another coworker, who is NOT your subordinate. Is there some manner in which it is acceptable to express your interest?…

One reason it's not OK, at least in tech, is that women are so hugely under-represented.

If a male employee not in a position of hierarchical power innocently expresses his interest to a single female coworker in the entire course of his career, is he evil? Is it harassment? Probably not... But from their female coworker's perspective, that's enough to create a pretty steady stream of random attention.

I think even that best case "only once" scenario creates a sort of crowd-sourced harassment baseline, on top of which you have to add repeat offenders, ones in a position of hierarchical or effective power, those who deal badly with rejection, the fact that the same thing happens in the street, the subway etc...

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#206

Post by saghm » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:35 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #119

infodroid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to get to know your coworkers better, so you can see them as people instead of mere job descriptions. It's still a workplace setting, except that you are discouraged from talking about work. The alcohol is there to cut through the inevitable anxiety that such situations create, not as an excuse to be unprofessional.

How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting? What would be the difference? Why wouldn't it be the exact same as water cooler talk?

> How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting?

I'm very confused by this question. My view of whether someone is a person is not mitigated by them acting profession.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#207

Post by jackmott » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:35 AM UTC

theWatcher37 wrote: post #146

mabbo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's what's legally required, and there's what's morally required. Here's a guy who did some serious soul-searching and said "holy shit, maybe I'm wrong on a very bad way". It's about doing more than what he is bare minimum allowed to get away with. He's taking personal responsibility for his actions, openly and publicly. That takes a level of maturity and openness that I know is hard, and I fully respect. All tha…

But it won't be enough, it won't be seen as positive, and like half the comments in this thread show once you're outed as a PC heretic you're a non-entity. Read through the smarmy "he doesn't mean it" comments all over this thread to see what I mean. This culture is toxic in the tech community and needs to stop.

The culture of being being mad at sexual harassment offenders even when they apologize is what is toxic in the tech community.

ok

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#208

Post by nnfy » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:36 AM UTC

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #106

nnfy wrote: post #43

It sounds like people are underestimating the pervasive lonileness that even successful young males experience in tech. This does create an incentive for women to play a little loose with their professional behavior, and we only see one side of the story here. No, I don't mean to excuse McClure's behavior entirely; however, the fact that many of these women did not immediately cease contact after innapropriate advanc…

> It sounds like people are underestimating the pervasive lonileness that even successful young males experience in tech. And again this comes up every single time. Just because someone is lonely didn't mean they're entitled to sexually harass someone else. Nor does being horny justify it. Nor does being angry justify violence. Similarly the fact they have to now choose between throwing away financial opportunity or…

>Similarly the fact they have to now choose between throwing away financial opportunity or acquiesce to this harassment

And what of the situation in which women continue to associate with their harassers? Do they truely have no liability? Why is it impossible to consider the possibility of some women using sex to get ahead? Why does this have to be such an absurdly one sided topic?

And yes, being lonely to the point of depression is indeed justification for making initial advances which may be misconstrued as sexual harassment, when monetary or other favors are accepted. If they do not cease when identified as unwelcome, they become a problem, sure. But the onus is also on the victim to communicate, and continued association is not only a mixed message, the victim begins to take advantage of the sexual tension by leading the harasser on and continuing to accept business favors.

In our rush to protect these women, whom we paint (unfairly and innacurately) as defensless, we only consider the imbalance of power and totally ignore the imbalance of sexual capital that is rife for exploitation especially by females.

I also do not believe that down votes are designed to signal disagreement.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#209

Post by macspoofing » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:36 AM UTC

genieyclo wrote: post #160

newtem0 wrote: post #120

Is asking a woman if you can buy her coffee sometime sexual harrasment if you do it at the workplace?

Yes.

No. That's not right. Don't be stupid.

People meet romantic partners and spouses at work all the time - are they all sexual harassers?

The true answer is: "It depends".

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#210

Post by kakarot » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 2:36 AM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #101

daenz wrote: post #24

Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he's compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation ("I'm such a creep. Please forgive me, world.") feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.

There's what's legally required, and there's what's morally required. Here's a guy who did some serious soul-searching and said "holy shit, maybe I'm wrong on a very bad way". It's about doing more than what he is bare minimum allowed to get away with. He's taking personal responsibility for his actions, openly and publicly. That takes a level of maturity and openness that I know is hard, and I fully respect. All tha…

Well he did mention he began counseling a month ago.