I'm a creep. I'm sorry • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#291

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 3:48 AM UTC

woofyman wrote: post #279

alexandercrohde wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think dating coworkers is wrong. I think making somebody uncomfortable with clumsy/forceful/persistent advances can be bad though. But let's say you like somebody at work, so you talk to them, and you both enjoy the conversation. Then you eat lunch together at work a few times. Then you invite them to get drinks after work as a group. Then you continue to hang out when the rest of the group has gone home. The…

The problem with dating a coworker is that when they break up with you, you have to see them everyday.

[deleted]

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#292

Post by orthoganol » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 3:49 AM UTC

coss wrote: post #259

Reading these comments makes me really depressed for the future of our society. Let me get this straight - 1. Don't go out with co-workers. 2. Don't make friends with co-workers. 3. Def. never drink with co-workers. Have we really become this sensitive? There's a voice in me that's screaming 'fuck off' to this kind of attitude. I can't quite articulate why it infuriates me so much.

It's really just bothersome in as much as the accusations cross into involuntary territory when in the presence of someone you are attracted to. Lingering eye contact, vibe change, getting in a cheery mood that makes you want to crack a joke (light flirting), is involuntary for most around people they are attracted to. It has nothing in common with overtly hitting on someone, yet such involuntary responses do sometimes get policed in the same way. I could see someone leveling against a man, "Your vibe changes when a pretty girl walks in." or "You make extra eye contact with her." and I have to wonder if people are indeed mixing those types of claims with the serious ones when they call out figures like Chris Sacca or McClure. If so, there should probably be a discussion...

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#293

Post by shams93 » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 3:50 AM UTC

alexandercrohde wrote: post #194

A lot of people here seem to not understand the power imbalance point, so I'd like to explain it. Imagine you're in these positions: --Being arrested, and an officer makes a romantic advance --On trial, and the judge makes a romantic advance --In therapy, and the therapist makes a romantic advance --At the doctor, and the doctor makes a romantic advance --At the bank, and the banker makes a romantic advance --In a re…

We need to legalize prostitution so that an investor or manager who has these fantasies can play them out with professional help. If we viewed prostitutes as a form of health therapist and gave them professional respect rather than keeping them in the black market a lot of these guys could work out their power issues with a trained sex professional instead of creating these nightmares for innocent women who just want to do a great job or run a successful startup.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#294

Post by watwut » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 3:51 AM UTC

theWatcher37 wrote: post #159

criddell wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be If you are in a position of power over another person, I would say there isn't an appropriate time. The number of hours you work isn't really relevant. Put it this way: when is an appropriate time for a college professor (that works long hours!) to ask a student out on a date?

You don't have an answer because you're not applying hard logic and rules but slippery moral constructs that revolve around the right people/outlets signaling that you need to be outraged. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking someone on a date. If they say no? Cool. Yes? Awesome. The act itself is not criminal, actions taken based on that (like retaliation) are. Demonizing basic human behavior has no place i…

"If you are in a position of power over another person, I would say there isn't an appropriate time."

Is neither illogical nor slippery moral construct. If you disagree with the rule, you should find better argument then just calling it "not hard logic enough".

On related note, if hiring manager asks for dates regularly, any hired women will be assumed less competent and assumed to sleep her way to success - no matter what her response. It is not like these accusations were far away for good looking women, they are pretty much guaranteed in this setup.

That is not cool.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#295

Post by triplohe » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 3:51 AM UTC

Dude is 50 years old, teeth are not good, body not good at all... and he's trying to hit on 30 year olds who are way out of his league... come on man... have some common sense.

If you want to get that top notch just pay for it.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#296

Post by luord » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 3:52 AM UTC

I'm not going to congratulate this guy or call him brave or anything, and I'm just going to mention that I consider this proof that speaking up against unfair treatment (in this case, harassment) can have an impact.

The only thing I'm going to commend about this post is that it's nice that he's trying not to bring the company (and thus, his colleagues) down with him.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#297

Post by ithinkinstereo » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 4:01 AM UTC

julianmarq wrote: post #258

> It's a qualified apology. I dislike how he not-so-subtly tries to justify his actions by painting a context that delegitimizes Sarah's claims. What claims were "deligitimized" and how did he do it? As for everything else you wrote I'll just say it must be awful living with such a misanthropic view but, hey, you do you.

Other posters agree with my read on his apology. While apologizing, McClure is also simultaneously trying to water down Sarah's presentation of the story; that the situation was more/less social in nature... specifically he says stuff like:

... years ago over drinks, late one night in a small group ...

... for my inappropriate behavior in a setting I thought was social, but in hindsight was clearly not ...

I mean, sure, the situation wasn't a formal interview, but by his omission, I take it that it also wasn't a dinner or social outing with friends. He also brings up that drinks were involved, but practically every company/vc sponsored event in the valley has alcohol involved. That doesn't make it okay to proposition an attendee you talked to about an open job position afterwards over FACEBOOK and bring up said job as part of your come-on. I mean this is literally the textbook definition of sexual harassment.

McClure of course doesn't bring up this level of detail about all the other instances where he sexually harassed women, probably because those instances were in even more formal settings and make him look like an even bigger creep.

What is truly misanthropic are apologists like yourself who give guys like this a pass because they write a nicely worded apology on medium after getting caught. Oh, he's soooo sincere; and what a good guy he is; and did you know that funded some LGBT initiative!

Half of the posts on this thread keep on bringing up the issue of workplace romance. It's a total red herring and a crock of shit. There are acceptable and appropriate ways to flirt and date in the workplace (if you must). All it takes is judgement and common sense. The vast majority of men deal with this just fine, and if you're one of them, you should be outraged. Assholes like McClure, and yes he is a total asshole -- that's his whole shtick after all -- poisons the well for us all. We must be unequivocal in renouncing this type of shit. If he wants redemption and kudos he has to earn it, an apology on medium is just the first (small) step. Any less, and you provide justification and cover for the next asshole to behave similarly. His success, contributions to the tech community, whatever, does not justify him demeaning and putting another human being in a shit position -- moreso because he has the power, and by his own admission, knowingly abused it to take advantage over someone is a weaker position. Apologies, no matter how sincere, don't make up for the years of anxiety, therapy, etc. that stuff like this can cause.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#298

Post by Zarath » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 4:05 AM UTC

rburhum wrote: post #276

Zarath wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most normal/adult people don't want to live in a world where you can't ask out your coworker.

There are literally billions of people in the world. Being professional just means that you exclude coworkers and people you do business with from romantic relationships. Pick anyone else from the billions of people - just not the ones you do business with.

There are spectrums of how much "business" I do with a coworker. If it's another person that works on the same floor or in the same building as me but whom I don't work with directly, then I don't really see any good reason to exclude them.

IMO being professional is more about how you handle the situation if the relationship goes south or never gets off the ground. PDA in the workplace is also unprofessional, obviously. But asking someone out? Doesn't seem unprofessional tbh.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#299

Post by watwut » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 4:05 AM UTC

mrmondo wrote: post #197

Aron wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Answers like the above one indicate a level of dystopia/fear that itself is concerning. Friendship on any level is highly dependent on proximity in space and time. We need to be aware of how our righteous minds work and stop throwing stones all over the place.

Exactly my feelings, I wouldn't hire someone into my team that I didn't think couldn't become my friend should the situation play out as such, it just seems logical to me.

That sounds like pretty dysfunctional hiring process, no matter what gender of candidate.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#300

Post by sauronlord » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 4:10 AM UTC

What is going on lately? This has reached bizzaro epic insanity.

Anyone that has a full background in evolutionary biology and sexual dynamics knows what is going on here.

Everyone else is playing a game and taking the usual, presently socially acceptable, positions.

First, a few things to remind people of:

1. The Female sex is the Chooser in the Human species. She decides whether a baby is made, brought to term, and nourished to grow into a human being.

2. Men approach and initiate in vast majority of relationships.

3. Sperm are cheap and plentiful (why we send men, not women, to war)

4. Eggs are relatively rare and few. (Why we don't offer equal employment to women to earn big pay in coal mines)

5. You can repopulate the planet with 3 billion women and 1 man. But you cannot repopulate with 3 billion men and 1 women.

These are facts, not opinions. If you are repulsed by this or downvote me. Then you are ignorant of biological reality.

Now, what is happening lately is the complete domination of society by the Feminist Imperative.

- There is no gender wage gap when controlled for equal life choices. Yet myth is propagated like gospel.

-1/4th women get domestically abused. 1/5th men get domestically abused. 99.99% of shelters are for women only. Only couple men shelters in USA.

- Rape of men is just as prevalent as women (I dare you to look this up and do yout research). Oh... men can't be raped because they need erections? Think again. Women's vagina's also lubricate when being raped. Does not mean consent is given.

- Most men in prison and get harsher sentence for same crimes as women.

-Suicide rate is through the roof for men

- 60% of college enrollments are women

- women under 30 get preferred 2 to 1 over equally qualified males.

These are facts. Don't get upset with me.

The ONLY difference between a creep and a hot stud of a man flirting with you is THIS:

A woman will consider a playful comment, a wink, or asking her on a date to be creepy if she's not into you and if your SMV (Sexual Market Value) is lower than hers.