Loses his job. Major strike on his career. National public shaming. I'm gonna click the link and go see what murderous crime he committed.
I'm a creep. I'm sorry
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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#92I've got to wonder, why do coworkers go out for drinks if it's not a social setting? I don't understand the logic of mixing alcohol with colleagues if you're still under the "workplace" umbrella.
Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.
Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning?
I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature of it.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#93Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he's compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation ("I'm such a creep. Please forgive me, world.") feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.
Totally agree. There's something very weird about this post. If I were truly faced with the sudden realization that I was a deeply shitty person, I can't imagine writing a post like this. I'd be off the grid entirely, probably drinking in a ditch some place. I know I can't speak for others and everyone is different, but the human element is missing here somehow. It does feel very PR.
His firm will demand that he write a post as part of his professional duties.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#94[deleted]
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#95Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he's compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation ("I'm such a creep. Please forgive me, world.") feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.
I think it's because he wanted to pepper in details like "It was over drinks and I thought it was social", aka actually defend his actions while renouncing them on the surface. The "upcoming discussions" with 500 associates reads like he's looking to get back onboard.
> "It was over drinks and I thought it was social"
It is horrifying that world leaders and public figures use this kind of excuse, which is supposed to somehow give a pass, and then we see it trickle down to the man on the street.
Really, the public figures should be prosecuted and made an example of, so that is the example for the average man. Anything less is unacceptable.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#96A HUGE percentage of couples meet through work. It's not inherently wrong, or something inherently taboo. (We've all been told not to stick our pens in the company ink, but... time and time again we also see examples of happily married couples who met on the job... Bill Gates' wife worked for Microsoft, The Obamas met while they were working together, Ryan Reynolds & Blake Lively met on the set of Green Lantern...) S…
Much of the issue isn't just "meeting through work", but the power imbalance. Of your examples, only Gates includes this imbalance. I don't know the specifics of their situation, but I'd hope that he recused himself from being directly involved in her performance reviews etc., whereas McClure was explicitly tying his attraction to the hiring decision - "I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit o…
I'd be more worried about the guy who she says no to who keeps coming. Poor judgement... maybe, but who knows what signals he was reading into the situation at the time. He just sounds like a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience with women, and he tried to make a joke and it didn't go well. Now he's gotta read about his failed flirtation attempts in the NYT. That's gotta be rough.
If he was overt, or repetitive, or really sleazy... yeah sure, I'm not on his side. But to me this just comes off as a guy who hit on someone who was out of his physical league and she didn't appreciate it (probably also because she didn't get offered a job). I don't think Dave McClure deserves to be crucified over this.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.
> Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed. Yes but you have to understand that we humans have a incredible high drive to reproduce, and many successful couples forms in the work environment. I have a child with a coworker. Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environments but there are a big difference between approaching someone and sexually harassment. Moder…
> Sexual approaches do happen in those kinds of environment
The power imbalance and lack of non-work relationship are key.
McClure had no personal relationship with this woman. They weren't friends, and they hadn't met in a non-professional setting.
Furthermore, he's in a position to make decisions about her future. In that situation, it's inappropriate to make the first move, because the other person will feel pressured to reciprocate, even if she doesn't want to.
This is very similar to the way professors aren't allowed to have sexual relationships with students in their classes, but students can have sexual relationships with each other.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#98A HUGE percentage of couples meet through work. It's not inherently wrong, or something inherently taboo. (We've all been told not to stick our pens in the company ink, but... time and time again we also see examples of happily married couples who met on the job... Bill Gates' wife worked for Microsoft, The Obamas met while they were working together, Ryan Reynolds & Blake Lively met on the set of Green Lantern...) S…
Meeting a coworker (even a boss!) socially, having drinks, escalating into a relationship - no problem. Normally-socialized people can do this because they can make these decisions over time, being careful to give the other person outs along the way.
McClure was basically honking his horn while driving his Tesla down the street, hollering "nice tits!" At best, that is anti-social, rude and offputting. But to do it while someone is in the midst of applying for a job can't be seen as anything other than an abuse of power to get what you want.
How would you feel if McClure gay propositioned YOU while trying to apply for a job? You want to work at this VC fund but before you can get your foot in the door he says you are a super hot stud and and he wants to take you home. For a man, it would be awkward as hell but easy to deflect. And you would probably rather not work there (this is where it is bad for business, not just McClure's penis).
As am attractive woman, this shit happens ALL THE TIME. Please stop defending it as "normal animal behavior" or whatever. Using power to get laid is fine if someone is attracted to that. But using power OVER someone is coersion. Anyone over the age of 13 should be able to figure this out.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#99A HUGE percentage of couples meet through work. It's not inherently wrong, or something inherently taboo. (We've all been told not to stick our pens in the company ink, but... time and time again we also see examples of happily married couples who met on the job... Bill Gates' wife worked for Microsoft, The Obamas met while they were working together, Ryan Reynolds & Blake Lively met on the set of Green Lantern...) S…
I, uh, can't believe that otherwise smart people can't understand the difference between building a romantic relationship and sexual harassment.
Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not commenting on this case, but Billy Graham, after seeing what happened to other well know preachers, was never alone with any woman except his wife Ruth. It is a pretty good strategy. Today, a powerful person could probably enhance his/her personal security by having an assistant with an always on camera like some police forces use.
He may have been protecting himself from others, but also protecting himself from himself? I don't feel Billy Graham was eager to cheat, but he recognized his potential for giving in to temptation, and made specific choices ahead of time to minimize his risk.
> He may have been protecting himself from others, but also protecting himself from himself?
Does it matter? The fact is, if you are a man in a position of power, never being alone in a room with a woman you don't know very well, is starting to sound like a reasonable strategy.
People in other threads have said, that limiting your one-on-ones with women, inhibits their opportunities (perhaps we should not have one-on-ones at all to make that fair). But when there are other people in your life that you need to "protect" from any scandals, I really can't blame these men for picking their loved ones and reputations over "social justice".
This is one of those "going to get worse before it gets better" things.