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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#501

Post by zbraniecki »

curun1r wrote: post #430
adamsea wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual consistency would require acknowledging the systematic repression of women in western history (not being able to vote, etc), and thus, the effects of what is still a patriarchial culture as often as not. In other words, your argument attempts to ignore simple historical facts which you can verify easily on Wikipedia.

Where did I ignore that? I called their behavior reprehensible. I'm just saying that it's unlikely the behavior exists in a vacuum and that things are never as black and white as they're made out to be. Historical oppression doesn't justify questionable behavior. I've seen many instances where women have "dated up" to help their careers. I even saw one instance where a female director dated the CTO and later the CFO…

This article, and this conversation is about one pathology. You bring up a different one and say "we should treat them equally!" - that's not very different from the "all lives matter" bullshit. Sexism and discrimination of women in tech industry is a massive problem. What you described probably exists in some cases, but is not a) related to the problem at hand and b) orders of magnitude less profound. By bringing it up here and trying to tie those two together you're devaluating the severity of the problem at hand in the same way as if you went to an article about rape and started talking about those promiscous people who like sex.

Those pathetic douchebags were not "primed" by any experiences with women "dating up". They were primed, trained, protected and covered up by the shitty patriarchal society we live in. And it's worth tackling that problem without attempting to dilute it in "maybe she wanted it" sauce.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#503

Post by czechdeveloper »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #476
CydeWeys wrote: post #13

This is a watershed moment in the VC industry. The dam has finally burst, and we're now seeing the establishment of a new norm in which women who are being harassed go public rather than feeling compelled to hide it. Expect to see many men who were operating under the old norms getting ousted.

I wonder how the tech will handle false accusations, though. The culture of "guilty until proven innocent" opens up avenues of abuse, which were, are, and will be used.

Usually those people are repeated offenders and once first victim comes out, other are encouraged to do so too. That would give claim more weight. False accusations are rare anyway, but I understand your concerns.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#504

Post by [deleted] »

linkregister wrote: post #423
rayiner wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me, this is the sort of "fainting couch" feminism that regards women as only potential victims who can't stand up for themselves and who must be protected by others. It's not fainting couch feminism, it's pragmatic feminism. These interactions happen in a context where peoples' livelihoods, their hopes and dreams, are on the line. Are you going to expect them to jeopardize that by overtly calling someone out? Th…

I think the point that the parent commenter is missing, and you're not illustrating, is that women are very frequently propositioned in the workplace. To stcredzero, he's innocuously asking a woman colleague of equal rank, who he has rapport with, out to a movie. He sees it as an opportunity to develop a relationship that could lead to a happy marriage. He doesn't get that many opportunities due to various reasons, s…

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#506

Post by Tharkun »

rhcom2 wrote: post #213
tuna-piano wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to elaborate on point #4. I chose those examples purposefully: Those three are all well-known business leaders who have dated or married their subordinates. Presumably, there was a point where Gates/Brin/Knight initiated or suggested to initiate romantic involvement. If as it turns out the woman had not been interested, in retrospect, would the methods of initiation seem like sexual harassment? I believe…

If the women isn't interested, you stop. Seems like many men have a problem with rejection and accepting no, that's usually when it becomes creepy. Had Gates asked his now SO out and she said no and then he politely went on his way like a respectful human being I really doubt anyone would cry sexual harassment.

> If the women isn't interested, you stop.

I feel like this is much easier said than done. Emotions can be complex and fickle. Many books have been written about how to woo a potential mate. There have been tales of love potions for hundreds of years. The dating scene is filled with people who use subtle manipulative behaviour to score.

What I'm trying to say is that it can be very hard to know whether someone is interested. And the success of your wooing efforts determines -- retroactively -- their creep factor.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#507

Post by matt4077 »

tomcam wrote: post #317

Have things become worse or is Seattle different? I saw none of this behavior during my tenure at Microsoft (1996-2000). Admittedly I am a dude, though a lifelong feminist.

There was an interview with Sara Lacy(sp?) from Pando where she says that it changed when the founder demographic changed. Before, it was either nerds, or older, experienced people from Intel, Cisco etc. Now, the "bros" are starting companies.

She credits The Social Network with being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#508

Post by honestoHeminway »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #464
honestoHeminway wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kickin downwards lickin upwards, thats the why we all love hierarchical companys so much.

This works everywhere there is a social hierarchy, starting from extended families in tighter-knit societies.

The problem is that this sort of hierarchy rewards two abilitys- sliming and kicking - and (if you are good at that) upholding and extending hierarchys.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#509

Post by hanspeter »

chrischen wrote: post #132
zzalpha wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, that statement is only false if these are false accusations. Are you saying they're false accusations?

My point holds as long as false accusations are possible. Women, like men, are not all angels. Sexism, or even patriarchy, has no gender.

But false accusations are possible about anything. By this logic VCs should avoid talking with anyone.
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