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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#241

Post by rhizome »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168
dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

They also think they're exceptional. They don't understand boundaries, and they don't understand that women have to deal with that shit from other guys who also think that

Dark Triad, anybody?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#242

Post by ajeet_dhaliwal »

rl3 wrote: post #7

This entire article is a smorgasbord of cringe: > During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.” One would think having the phrases "hire you" and "hit on you" in the same sentence when communicating with someone undergoing recruitment at your company would be…

A new one to put in the pros column for bootstrapping your startup - not having to get harassed by creepy investors!

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#244

Post by sokoloff »

kevinburke wrote: post #30
rdlecler1 wrote: post #11

Has anyone seen a policy on how to handle sexual harassment allegations in the work place? If it comes down to 'he says she says' do you fire someone even though you don't have evidence? Similarly, if you don't fire someone and new allegations come up later then it makes the employer look like they are an enabler.

> If it comes down to 'he says she says' do you fire someone even though you don't have evidence? If an employee of yours said they were raped by another employee, would you make them go to the hospital and get a rape kit before believing what they said? If an employee of yours said they got mugged and lost their laptop, would you demand security camera footage before replacing it? You should default to trusting your…

> If an employee of yours said they were raped by another employee, would you make them go to the hospital and get a rape kit before believing what they said?

And if the other employee said they didn't commit the rape, you should presumably believe them by default as well, right?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#245

Post by lawnchair_larry »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #68

"Because VCs are all populated by serial harassers who now realize they can't get away with this crap?" Because any of them that aren't used to avoiding all the risky behaviors, whether doing it intentionally (asking for dates) or unintentionally ("discriminatory language"), will now worry that they'll be hit with newspaper articles that can destroy their career. They'll be considered guilty until proven innocent by…

Now I'm curious what line of work you're in where you find yourself in these conflicts so frequently. I've heard one off stories like that, but outside of politics, never heard of an environment where this is a regular occurrence.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#246

Post by jacquesm »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #119
api wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am white and male and the misogyny I've observed in tech has annoyed me . If it annoys me it must be intolerable to women. I believe every word of it and I could tell a few stories of things I've seen. I've seen a lot of other kinds of assholery too. Tech has an underbelly just like any other major industry. FWIW I've heard Hollywood and Wall St. are worse.

Tell one.

I'll tell you one.

A bank I worked at in the mid 80's had one woman working on a floor in a fairly separate building away from the main building. That one woman had to endure pretty much constant harassment from two guys who were technically her superior and their boss didn't lift a finger to stop it.

I made a good bit of noise about it to HR and then she begged me to stop because she was afraid they'd let her go. The two guys that did this (Koert Borst and Jos Haarsma, I sincerely hope they read this, assuming they are still alive) were crossing so many lines in their behavior I lost count.

Fortunately I only worked in that department (systems administration) for about a year before landing a job at the computer center which was far away from the main offices. Assholes would be too friendly a term to describe those two, it was downright sadistic how they enjoyed harassing her until she cried.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#247

Post by stcredzero »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168
dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable.

Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having the cachet of being involved with startups carries a certain small amount of power in itself. Combine this corruption with the powerful instincts around sex and mating, and really bad things can happen.

I'm probably going to be attacked for this, but I really wish women would be overt and name such things. (Here, I'm talking about workplace norms in CA in general, not any of the specific situations of women named in the NYT article.) As it is, there are so many provisions for deniability, being second guessed, and not overtly saying "I'm not interested" that it really muddies the waters. I think it would help if women just said, "No. I'm sorry, but I don't think of you this way." or, "No, sorry, but I think I should keep business and personal matters separate." Wasn't clear and direct communication part and parcel of the "no means no" message in the first place? By creating norms where women think it's dangerous to just come out and say no, it's like we're creating an operating assumption where any man who might hear "no" has to be considered some kind of unstable potential attacker. To me, this is the sort of "fainting couch" feminism that regards women as only potential victims who can't stand up for themselves and who must be protected by others. To say the overt "no" -- to directly say what you want and mean -- is to claim agency as an adult. It's a chance for the refused to show acceptance. It's a chance for every party involved to coexist as equals.

Disclosure, this comes to mind because of something that happened between me and a colleague of equal rank in a volunteer organization who went directly from "I don't think I can see a movie tonight" to "This situation is making me uncomfortable" with nothing in between. I just don't think this is suitable verbal behavior for supposedly rational adults. Okay, now you angry and misguided young "activists" come and lay on the aspersions that I'm some sort of morally deficient person.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#248

Post by smmsnsks »

gizmo wrote: post #226
smmsnsks wrote: post #193

Avoiding this situation is why I never meet women 1:1 outside of conference rooms, yet Mike Pence was roundly mocked for doing this.

Regardless of intent, this contributes to the problem. A lot of mentoring and networking happens on a 1:1 basis, and if men refuse to meet women 1:1 in situations where they would meet with other men, then women will lose out on career opportunities.

The risks are too great for me to make that my problem. If a woman wants a meeting with me, I'm happy to make time for her, it just has to be during the daytime.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#250

Post by jackcn »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #37

Good that they came out, many admitted to it, and some are gone. That's the good news. Still, one was extra weird and messed up that I had to at least look at both of them in how they presented themselves: Marc Cantor vs Wendy Dent. It was one of few where little info and no picture was available for the woman. It already presented his background plus him admitting he sent sexual and weird messages to her in response…

Sounds like a serial sexual assaulter justifying his own behavior.
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