Live data from Hacker News

Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

81–90 of 882 posts

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Next time you hear "a constant murmur" of harassment, racism, or other bad behaviour, _believe it_. Um, no? There's a constant murmur of racism in SV companies. I haven't seen that at all. In fact, the opposite. Doesn't mean there's no racism, but I'd rather have actual examples before I buy into that line. There's a constant murmur of ageism in tech companies. I haven't seen that either. Plenty of people over 40,…

Because these stories are an object demonstration that this sort of thing can be happening in a blatant, undeniable way - seriously, read those texts - and the men around can never see it . So, "never seeing it" isn't really strong evidence that isn't happening. (Compare catcalls. Female friends I trust tell me this happens to them all the time. Around me? ~Never. But that's cause it happens when I'm not there . Extr…

I don't see any texts that people around me send each other privately, so as far as 1:1 private communication goes, yes I'll "never see it."

I'm not doubting the stories posted in these articles. But I'm not going to believe something just because there's a "constant murmur." There was also a constant murmur that Obama hated America, etc.

Your catcalls example is not a "murmur," it was people you know, telling you what happened to them. That's different.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside, and not meant at you specifically, but: Next time you hear "a constant murmur" of harassment, racism, or other bad behaviour, _ believe it _. That constant murmur is the sound of a thousand stories like this that don't (yet) have the coordination to hit the pages of the NYT at the same time and become "credible". A month ago, there were dozens of female founders sitting on stories like this who were still afra…

> Next time you hear "a constant murmur" of harassment, racism, or other bad behaviour, _believe it_. Um, no? There's a constant murmur of racism in SV companies. I haven't seen that at all. In fact, the opposite. Doesn't mean there's no racism, but I'd rather have actual examples before I buy into that line. There's a constant murmur of ageism in tech companies. I haven't seen that either. Plenty of people over 40,…

Believe it or not, there is stuff happening that you are not aware of. If your first reaction to hearing such things is "Well I've never seen it, therefore it probably doesn't exist", maybe some self-reflection is in order.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#83

I give a lot of credit to women like Susan Fowler who were brave enough to speak out, with starting what feels a bit like a tidal wave. I hope we see similar light shone on institutionalized racism.

You'd rather say that she was sufficiently well connnected to make her voice heard. Even then she came public only after she had left the company and was employed elsewhere.

> You'd rather say that she was sufficiently well connnected to make her voice heard.

Most complaints of this nature damage the victim's career prospects and/or end up with loss of job/funding/etc. There is rarely evidence because the few who perpetrate this kind of behavior often deliberately avoid leaving evidence. They also rely on societal signals that most people don't believe it or don't care.

It isn't very hard to figure out. Every rape trial includes a huge segment on what the victim was wearing, as if that mattered. The message is clear: this is the way powerful people work, deal with it.

> Even then she came public only after she had left the company and was employed elsewhere

Which is damn smart on her part.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#84

How is it that the old money industries of Wall Street and Hollywood, no vanguards of gender egalitarianism themselves, seem to have less flagrant sexual harassment issues? Do they keep them under wraps or are they just more mature by now?

The tech industry, for all it's faults and transgressions, is still a relatively progressive industry (emphasis on RELATIVE). "Old money industries" have been getting away with this type of behavior for decades, if not centuries. Women in those jobs probably see no point in reporting it or coming forward. Why would they? It's not going to make headlines that the secretary at Goldman Sachs gets propositioned for sex b…

See Wolf of Wall St for most vivid example. I'll also add it's extremely common in sales all over the country. Especially telemarketing, phone sales, boiler rooms, and so on. A large number of women I've talked to over the years in those positions say it's crazy. That movie even brought flashbacks for at least one I talked to who told me of huge parties with barbeque, pools, drugs, and tabs for employees for beer and hotel rooms. I actually went to the first half of one of that company's parties at her invitation. Too crazy and too many hard drugs for me so I left. I've seen similar stuff at corporate offices of what you'd consider boring industries where on the executive or senior level they'd waste company money on parties with dates, secretaries, hookers or whatever. Nowhere near as extreme as the Wolf but same problems.

So, yeah, I have probably over a hundred anecdotes especially in sales but in general saying the right-leaning, ultra-capitalist areas have a lot of it nobody cares to report. Plus, it gets worse in "right to work" (aka fire without cause) states where there's limited job availability or the man/woman being harassed has been at company so long them not getting a reference can be held over them. Lots of reasons not to report.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#85
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly. Not because they are likely to be problems, quite the opposite I'd wager. That's going to be the rather depressing and sad reality of the shakeout of this.

Because VCs are all populated by serial harassers who now realize they can't get away with this crap? Or are you saying these will be seen as false accusations and thus it'll scare off VCs who aren't run by mysogynist pieces of sh-t? Because I'm not sure what the alternative is. If a VC is not in the habit of harassing women, they have nothing to fear. In fact, it'll give them an opportunity to court talented entrepr…

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#86

This is a watershed moment in the VC industry. The dam has finally burst, and we're now seeing the establishment of a new norm in which women who are being harassed go public rather than feeling compelled to hide it. Expect to see many men who were operating under the old norms getting ousted.

I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly. Not because they are likely to be problems, quite the opposite I'd wager. That's going to be the rather depressing and sad reality of the shakeout of this.

Any VC whose reaction to this is "oh I guess I should avoid taking meetings with women because I just can't know what goof will cause me to get sued" is probably already making some women uncomfortable.

If you cannot understand how _stupidly easy_ it is to have a completely non-sexual, non-harassing conversation with a member of the opposite sex, you most definitely should read up on some stuff. I mean this in the most non-snarky way possible.

Wouldn't it be nice if half the population weren't completely turned off by the idea of talking to anyone in tech?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#87
post #76

Better PR departments?

Honestly I think higher ups in finance have more money to use to sweep it under the rug.

As femboner said, there's whole companies in public relations and image management dedicated to doing stuff like that. Plus individuals with a great representation for misrepresenting stories. Spin doctors I believe they're called.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly. Not because they are likely to be problems, quite the opposite I'd wager. That's going to be the rather depressing and sad reality of the shakeout of this.

> I expect less VCs to take meetings with women, sadly. Why? There's a really simple procedure that can solve these problems: Don't hit on, feel-up, or try to have sex with people you're in a professional business relationship with . That goes double for people you hold power over (managers to employees, VCs to Founders, etc). If you're really truly worried about false accusations then here's another fix you can have…

The smart ones might take more, less competition for the ones with good ideas/products.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#89

How is it that the old money industries of Wall Street and Hollywood, no vanguards of gender egalitarianism themselves, seem to have less flagrant sexual harassment issues? Do they keep them under wraps or are they just more mature by now?

Old institutions in wall street have processes in place to follow up and lay off employees.

Banks keep records of all communications and emails. Whatever you said, it is not just stored and available for searching, it is also randomly inspected by annoying regulators and backed up in a bunker for the next 5 years.

Last but not least, they are not populated by 20 years old brogrammers.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#90
I'm a US, straight (the subject of the OP is men hitting on women, so, for me to give my experience as examples, it's important to note that I'm a straight male), US, native born, white (for my examples, it's likely also relevant to note that I'm in the majority of the people in the subject of the OP), male.

From my first girlfriend to my (late) wife, I've always treated girls/women as angels.

But in the work place, I had several girls/women make it clear they wanted something physical and romantic, that is, sexual, with me.

Example 1: I was a college prof also helping the college in practical computing, and she was on the college administrative staff. She wanted to talk to me. Leaning back in her office chair, facing me, her legs aimed at me, so I could get a view of the back side of her thighs, she put her feet up on her desk and announced that she and her husband had an "open marriage".

I thought: Okay. Good for you. What's that got to do with me? I'm married, and my marriage is not "open". And even if it was, or even if I were not married, sorry. I make the first move, and this college is a target rich environment where you wouldn't pass the initial cutoff.

Example 2: A student, call her a girl, wasn't doing very well in my applied math class. In class she sat in the front row with a sweater with too many buttons undone at the top. She looked terrified about my course. She came to see me in office hours. Sure, I'd give her in my office, any student, a one on one, personalized, repeat of the lectures, the course material, anything in the course, just tutor them if necessary. As I was going over some of the material trying to get her caught up, she sat close and rubbed her knee against my thigh.

I thought: Okay. You seem desperate. But you are safe with me. Let's concentrate on the applied math and get you through this course.

And there were several other examples.

I was not upset, offended, afraid, outraged, threatened, worried, etc.

And what complicated responses and reactions did I have to those proposals? Sure, exactly nothing, zip, zilch, zero. Easy.

If we are to have gender equality, then maybe the women should do something similar? E.g., in steps: Ignore it and concentrate on the work. Quit smiling. Scowl. Say something nasty. Scream. Bite, scratch, kick. Have a 6" hat pin and use it.

More advice: Don't dress like Fox Babes. Instead, if wearing skirts, have them about a foot longer so that when sitting the hem of the skirt is well over the knees, and modesty is preserved even if the knees are not together.

If Rafe Testosteroni doesn't like the hat pin, then he should stay out of range.

As a startup founder, CEO, the case I'm afraid of is too many of the females don't have enough pressing work to do, scare each other, form a herd, get highly energized and determined, and show up at my office with some lawyers complaining that Rafe Testosteroni routinely makes them "feel uncomfortable". Some of the women are convinced that Rafe is undressing them with his eyes. So far Rafe has never come within hat pin range, but all the women are very concerned. They all agree that they are highly concerned because they can't be sure just what Rafe is thinking or might do.

Post reply on HN