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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#311

Post by ksec »

dis-sys wrote: post #280
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has never been anything special about nanjing lu. Surely shanghai has something better than that? That is like going to Wangfujing in Beijing to shop....only if you are a tourist. The nice thing about HK is the diversity of shops. I almost feel like I'm back in the states, I can find things that I'd only find on Taobao in china. Not to mention the lower taxes make it on par with the states for pricing on electr…

Nanjing Rd has two completely different sections - Nanjing Rd East, which is a boring low-end touristy place, and Nanjing Rd West which attracts upper middle class locals. You can probably argue that lots of stuff there are overpriced, I'd happily agree with you on that, but Nanjing Rd west is definitely not for tourists. MBP is probably the worst example you can possibly think of - I can order on jd.com and get it d…

Some Facts 1. Most Luxury brands are more expensive in China. 2. Lots of Luxury brands sells slightly outdated products even in Tier-1 Cities. ( May not be Shanghai ) 3. Yes there is a decreasing number of people FROM tier 1 going into Hong Kong for shopping. 4. But that doesn't mean other Non-Tier 1 people aren't going to Hong Kong. 5. Yes those Tier 1 Citizens flies directly to Europe, Japan or Korea to buy what ever they want.

So to sum it up both of you were right.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#312

Post by ksec »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #211
contingencies wrote: post #135

I just crossed back to Shenzhen from Hong Kong yesterday. A few random observations... In HK, a lot of the taxi drivers are old guys who can barely read, don't speak English or mandarin, and are a real hassle to deal with unless you are a Cantonese speaker. A lot of the taxis have weird fare manipulation lookup tables instead of correct metering. Although the mass-transit oriented stored value card, Octopus, was esta…

I've never encountered a taxi driver in HK who didn't at least speak mandarin, many could even speak English. Perhaps it's just most of my interactions were to and from the airport?

There are two type of Taxi ( Actually three, but we leave it out for now ), and three type of Taxi Drivers in Hong Kong.

Two types of Taxi are Green Taxi for N.T Area, and Red Taxi for Kowloon and Hong Kong Island Area. And the three type of Taxi drivers are separated by the areas mentioned before.

If you arrive in Hong Kong Airport, or take Taxi in Hong Kong Island, you will highly likely meet a taxi drivers who could speak Mandarin, English and Cantonese, some even speak another dialect of Chinese. In Kowloon you may only see this in Tsim Sha Tsui Area where there are lots of tourist.

So if the parent arrived to HK by crossing Mainland border, you will be served by Green Taxi and I wouldnt be surprise if they dont speak anything buy Cantonese.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#313

Post by Cpoll »

devdoomari wrote: post #253
vkou wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States isn't far behind in making it illegal to report criminal behaviour. Consider ag-gag laws, consider how whistelblowers get punished.

...at least US doesn't make money selling organs :( I really like the Chinese people, but... their gov. is f *king evil mess against them

The US exploits their disenfranchised as well: see the prison system.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#314

Post by Steko »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #294
wbl wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can teach us how to use political dissidents as organ donors, suppress protests by disappearing opponents, imprison those who point out corruption, and no doubt many other things alien to our way of life.

>imprison those who point out corruption, To be fair, the current Chinese administration (Xi Jinping) identified back in 2012 corruption as one of the greatest threats to the Communist party (rightly so for any government imho) and began an unprecedented campaign to crack down on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under...

Mostly a pretext to crush his political rivals.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#315

Post by dlwdlw »

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

There's a term I'm playing around with "sinecure culture" that describes a society that is very well off compared to the rest of the world because of moats. The US due to WW2 weakening many other countries and HK because it was a gateway into China. This leads to lack of motivation to constantly improve and also entitlement.

The entitlement is a result of technology equalizing the playing field making things egalitarian. To rationalize why a simple job pays thousands of times more than backbreaking or highly technical jobs in poorer areas, this society has to feel superior in some way.

Few people seem to notice that in a perfectky fair world, the highest populations have the greatest advantages.

Another thing often ignored is that there isn't enough to go around. Divided equally the world's wealth is 10k each. Livable only if the world's cost of living is equalized as well. However in the Bay Area I cannot buy the 1 dollar delicious meals in other parts of the world.

When there are only a few immigrant going to a sinecure society, it is friendly. However once resources become strained you get tribes, boundaries, and rationalizations for more pie.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#316

Post by chemmail »

ionised wrote: post #299
dnh44 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thought of a truly democratic China today should be a terrifying thought to the rest of the world. It's a risky prospect compared to the current stability and growth. I'm sure they'll grow into their own version of democracy when necessary. And speaking of "democracy" is a two party system really all that much better or different than a one party system?

Why would it be terrifying if it was truly democratic?

lol

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#317

Post by emodendroket »

rz2k wrote: post #307
emodendroket wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conscious decision would probably be learning Mandarin phrases. Presumably a mainlander who was having trouble could always write the name of their destination. I haven't been to Europe but in Asia I don't think it's the case that most taxi drivers know much English. Some of the Japanese ones offer an in car interpretation service over the phone but I've never had occasion to use it.

I meant that they might know phrases in French, German, and Spanish more than English, though in the case of Europe English is pretty common. However, to be fair, in my experience, some people in Europe have hang ups too about different languages. I speak Italian, can pass with a little French, and know no German. In the northern Italian mountains people would start conversations with me in German based on my appeara…

I suspect the reaction would be more like bewilderment, because the geographical reach of Cantonese stops pretty far short of Beijing and it's rather unlikely you'll run into people who speak it. Now if you try speaking to them in Japanese they might be offended. But I have limited experience in the Sinosphere compared to Korea and Japan.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#318

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

"It's very easy to buy into narratives such as ..."

And then caretoomuch sells us a long narrative about the problem really being elitist rulers oppressing the poor.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#319

Post by FabHK »

dis-sys wrote: post #188

I'd like to offer my views on the decline of HK - 1. HK was a middleman, it used to connect the mainland China to the world. That worked for HK very well after 1949, but clearly the people living in the mainland do not want to see HK to keep having its cut for the flow of capitals/goods for a very reasonable reason - there are more and more professionals/businesses in mainland China that are eager/qualified/happy to…

I tend to disagree with you a lot, but the points you bring up here are (lamentably) very good.

> 1. HK was a middleman

Agreed. And as you say, that role is quickly fading.

> 2. HK failed to develop its industrial base.

Yes. There's always talk of making it a hub for [medicine/startups/arts/...], but efforts are half-hearted at best (compared to e.g. Singapore), and there's not much to show for it.

On the other hand, with the secular move from agriculture to manufacturing to service industries, this might not be that much of a problem - if HK maintained or developed its excellence in service industries (and the professions).

> 3. HK's retail sector

HK's retail sector lives of mainland tourists and the fact that there is no import taxes/duty and no VAT in HK (thus tons of mainlanders cross over for extended shopping sprees, supporting luxury shops that increasingly drive out shops catering to the local population, and driving up rents). It's huge in HK, but not sure that's necessarily a good thing. And, yeah, the innovation is basically that shopping malls have built-in terminals for buses to the border - wow.

Also, agreed, the chat/mobile payment system in China is very very innovative and impressive, probably way ahead of anywhere in the world.

> 4. HK's Infrastructure is no longer considered as good.

Well, by worldwide standards it's still excellent, it's just that China's infrastructure has caught up tremendously, and even overtaken it.

> 5. HK is losing its financial capital status fast.

Yes. That might not even be a bad thing. Problem is that it was one of the main drivers of HK prosperity, and I'm not sure there's a replacement in sight.

> All this come to a real question here: is HK declining or just returning to where it suppose to be?

Well. Decline seems inevitable, but implying that that's "where it is supposed to be" is a bit harsh. HK is a unique place with a unique history and people and unique achievements - it basically anticipated China's growth by a few decades.

And, of course, your "real question" reflects the Chinese perspective that naturally China sits on the top of the world, and the recent "century of humiliation" was just a temporary aberration.

I don't buy into this sort of historical determinism, and that idea of China's natural supremacy is as silly as US American exceptionalism or Hegel's notion that civilisation found its culmination in 19th century Germany.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#320

Post by lmm »

s73ver wrote: post #302
lmm wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the European Commission, the body on which Britain's entire representation for many years was twice-disgraced former MP Peter Hamilton. Who voted for that?

Presumably the people who voted for Britain's ruling government at the time.

The people of Britain vote for their local MPs, who vote for a government, who appointed a European Commissioner. Theoretically that's a chain of accountability (and purely theoretically it's also possible for the European Parliament to dismiss the Commission), but it's too weak for democracy to apply in practice - Mandelson could not have held an office that the British public had any real control over. The British civil service has a similarly limited level of accountability which is exactly why they're required to be politically neutral - it's a reasonable arrangement for a technical regulatory body, but obviously unsuitable for general-purpose lawmaking. Unfortunately the EU has subtly slid from the former into the latter without reassessing whether its institutions and conventions were still suitable.
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