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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#301

Post by stale2002 »

tesators wrote: post #235
tuna-piano wrote: post #3

Some questions I'm thinking of in regards to this situation: -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? -Britain seems to be standing up for Hong only lightly. Will they ever carry a bigger stick?[1] -What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? -Would the former colonies in Africa and Asia be in better hands if they were st…

The problem is that Hong Kong was a colony for 100+ years so the effects of colonial mentality still remain. Like black American slaves fighting for the Confederacy, we see that as wrong.

Hong Kong is not fighting to get put back under British rule.

They are fighting for self determination and to be rolled by themselves, instead of outside undemocratic dictators.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#302

Post by s73ver »

lmm wrote: post #287
s73ver wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the European Parliament? The body to whom British citizens did in fact elect members to?

No, the European Commission, the body on which Britain's entire representation for many years was twice-disgraced former MP Peter Hamilton. Who voted for that?

Presumably the people who voted for Britain's ruling government at the time.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#303

Post by gorkonsine »

logfromblammo wrote: post #51
muninn_ wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm looking at things how they currently are in 2017. I support self-determination of Africans (and subsequently all people), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be better off right now under British rule. The British (and others, like the Dutch) never should have colonized Africa (or anywhere else), but they did. Likewise, I can acknowledge that the British are probably worse-off for leaving the EU, but also s…

How does that old faxlore go? Heaven: British cops German mechanics French chefs Italian lovers Swiss administrators Hell: German cops French mechanics British chefs Swiss lovers Italian administrators Some nation-tribes are better at governance than others. Their countries might be objectively better if they were administered by another nation-tribe, but then it wouldn't be their country. Rhodesia was certainly a be…

That old faxlore is obsolete I think. From what I've heard, German cops are actually really good these days. Unlike some countries, they're not very likely to shoot first and ask questions later. And the reputation of British cops seems to have gone downhill lately. Also, I didn't think British chefs were bad (Gordon Ramsay is British after all); the main problem with British cuisine is that most of it just borrows from elsewhere, much like American food, and isn't uniquely British.

So I think an updated list would be:

Heaven: German cops, German mechanics, French chefs, Italian lovers, Swiss administrators

Hell: American cops, French mechanics, ??? chefs (Canadian perhaps?), British or American lovers, American administrators

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#304

Post by awkwarddaturtle »

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

That's seems like the modern neoliberal city problem rather than a problem specific to hong kong.

The same problems afflicting hong kong is afflicting all modern neoliberal cities - new york, LA, chicago, london, etc.

Where the elite want to increase real estate/asset prices and the younger generation are left behind.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#305

Post by jtolmar »

wbl wrote: post #169
narrator wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures: I am really waiting for a NY Times article that has some angle about what China can teach us, not what they should learn from us. For the last 30 years we have been getting continuous dispatches that Communism with Chinese characteristics will fail into economic…

They can teach us how to use political dissidents as organ donors, suppress protests by disappearing opponents, imprison those who point out corruption, and no doubt many other things alien to our way of life.

Those things, while terrible, are separable from their economic progress. Unless you believe that using political dissidents as organ donors helps the economy.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#306

Post by awkwarddaturtle »

blackbagboys wrote: post #22

Compared to the reputation for far-seeing technocratic excellence that it acquired in the foreign business press, the CCP leadership has always been astonishingly short-sighted when it comes to foreign policy. The Taiwanese are taking note of what 'one country two systems' means in practice - absolute submission to the ruthless, brutal oligarchy in Beijing. The CCP will crush Hong Kong, destroying everything that mad…

> The Taiwanese are taking note of what 'one country two systems' means in practice

At the end of the day, what does that matter? There are 1.4 billion who claim taiwan as part of china. Nothing is going to change that. Taiwan can note whatever they want, but at the end of the day, taiwan is going to be a province of china eventually.

A lot of what you wrote is a bit hyperbolic. Taiwan is almost entirely dependent on trade with china. If beijing really wanted to alienate taiwan, they would cut all trade with china and seize all of taiwan's asset in china. That would collapse taiwan overnight.

Also, the chinese don't see taiwan-relations as part of "foreign policy". They see it as a wholy intra-chinese policy.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#307

Post by rz2k »

emodendroket wrote: post #277
rz2k wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounded like a contrast to Shenzhen. Throughout the world, taxi drivers in international cities know a couple dozen words in multiple languages. Paris, Rome, Berlin, Madrid? Even if they didn't grow up speaking Mandarin, it sounds like a conscious decision, if they don't understand a request in Mandarin from a rider today. Of course, this is just one person's set of impressions, too.

The conscious decision would probably be learning Mandarin phrases. Presumably a mainlander who was having trouble could always write the name of their destination. I haven't been to Europe but in Asia I don't think it's the case that most taxi drivers know much English. Some of the Japanese ones offer an in car interpretation service over the phone but I've never had occasion to use it.

I meant that they might know phrases in French, German, and Spanish more than English, though in the case of Europe English is pretty common.

However, to be fair, in my experience, some people in Europe have hang ups too about different languages. I speak Italian, can pass with a little French, and know no German. In the northern Italian mountains people would start conversations with me in German based on my appearance, and in resort towns there were a number of people who chose not to learn Italian, but English was okay.

Similarly, a friendly lady was trying to help me in a train station in Paris, my French wasn't good enough to understand some detail, her English wasn't any better than my French, and I asked her if she spoke Italian. She curtly answered no, and seemed a little offended.

I imagine I'd have similar stories if I only spoke English and French, English and Spanish, or English and German.

Would people react with occasional distaste if you tried communicating using Cantonese in Beijing?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#308

Post by awkwarddaturtle »

holydude wrote: post #17

Ofc China does not want HK to be free. China found out how to get "rich" without losing control. They want exactly the opposite of what makes HK HK. It's just sad that many strong economies feel like they need / want the growth based on chinese consumption and trade and are feeding this undemocratic behemoth. What is scary is that China is actively promoting expansion by resettling ethnic han chinese.

> They want exactly the opposite of what makes HK HK

China is what made HK HK... It was china's economic boom that enriched and modernized china.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#309

Post by awkwarddaturtle »

sirkneeland wrote: post #94
abiox wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

afaik, british control derived from a land lease. the lease ended per the time table in the lease. as such nobody was 'kicked out'.

The British had wanted to continue their period of rule in Hong Kong as the expiration date neared. It was a subject of negotiation between China and the UK in the 1980s. They wanted British rule or even some kind of joint administration. Even Thatcher (hardly a shrinking violet when it came to using force to get her way) couldn't get a deal to continue British rule in Hong Kong. China made it perfectly clear that th…

> Even Thatcher (hardly a shrinking violet when it came to using force to get her way) couldn't get a deal to continue British rule in Hong Kong.

Deng actually told Thatcher that if britain didn't leave, china would invade HK and unify by force. Thatcher actually asked the US if they would protect britain from china and we said no. And that was the end of britain's hope of keeping stolen territory.

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